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While BNPL has gathered all the attention these past few years there is another point of sale financing category that has been around for decades: lease-to-own, sometimes called rent-to-own. It has historically been full of unscrupulous actors with excessive fees and it is not an area that has received much attention from fintech companies.
My next guest on the Fintech One-on-One podcast is Neal Desai, the CEO and Founder of Kafene. After a thorough analysis of different opportunities he landed on lease-to-own as an area that could use some fintech innovation. He is doing things very differently to the legacy players in the field and is building a sizable business.
In this podcast you will learn:
- The detailed research that Neal did before founding Kafene.
- Why he decided to focus on lease-to-own financing as a category.
- How his time as a trader on Wall Street helps him run Kafene.
- How the Kafene offering works.
- The types of companies they partner with.
- Their average approval amount.
- How they underwrite these subprime consumers.
- Their unique approach to helping consumers who are experiencing difficulties.
- The regulatory structure they use with their lease-to-own agreements.
- Their approach to adding merchants into their ecosystem.
- How the rise of BNPL has impacted the growth of Kafene.
- The breakdown of early buyouts, returns and charge-offs.
- How Kafene is building trust in a space not known for good actors.
- How they make money.
- The big challenges today when it comes to growing their business.
- The scale they are at today.
- Neal’s vision for the future of Kafene.
Read a transcription of our conversation below.
FINTECH ONE-ON-ONE PODCAST NO. 492 – NEAL DESAI
Peter Renton 00:01
Welcome to the Fintech One-on-One podcast. This is Peter Renton, co-founder of Fintech Nexus and now the CEO of the fintech consulting company Renton & Co. I’ve been doing this show since 2013, which makes this the longest running one-on-one interview show in all of fintech. Thank you so much for joining me on this journey. Now let’s get on with the show.
Peter Renton 00:27
Today on the show, I’m delighted to welcome Neal Desai. He is the CEO and Co-Founder of Kafene. Kafene is a really interesting company. They are unique insofar as they are pretty much the only fintech company focusing on the lease-to-own space. It’s not an obvious space for fintech, but Neal has developed a system and a way of doing business that is really working and helping those consumers who really can’t afford or don’t qualify for any other type of financing. And we go obviously, into some depth into how this all works. The fact is that Kafene is not a lender, we talk about that. We also talk about BNPL and what that has meant for Kafene. We talk about the performance of their portfolio, what happens if someone wants to return an item, and he gives his long term vision for the lease-to-own space and for Kafene. It was a fascinating discussion. Hope you enjoy the show.
Peter Renton 01:36
Welcome to the podcast. Neal.
Neal Desai 01:37
Thank you so much for having me, excited to be here.
Peter Renton 01:39
My pleasure. So let’s kick it off by giving the listeners some background. Why don’t you hit on some of the high points of your career to date before Kafene?
Neal Desai 01:51
Yeah, sure thing. So we can actually start earlier than that. I grew up in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, pretty into science and math growing up. Studied Molecular Biology at Princeton, did a lot of game theory and stats work. And that carried me into, you know, what turned out to be over a 15-year career in equity derivatives and relative value trading. I ended up in 2016 realizing and I’ve been, you know, struggling with it for a few years, but realizing that I was pretty good as a trader, but just my heart was not in it. And so 2016, I did a complete career shift, started to pursue fintech and entrepreneurship, and landed at a company called Octane Lending, which was only 11 people when I got there. Was very lucky in that I had a lot of responsibility early, and the company took off like a rocket. So for your listeners who don’t know, Octane is a unicorn at this point. It’s a powersports lender, that’s where I really cut my teeth in consumer lending. And I was CFO from, you know, for Octane from 2016 through the end of 2018.
Peter Renton 02:50
Where did the idea for Kafene come from? Was it while you’re at Octane? Or how did that come about?
Neal Desai 02:55
Yeah, I think it was really an extension of my desire to pursue something other than trading. And so I knew I wanted to be a founder. But I also knew in 2016, that I didn’t know what I was doing. So you know, Octane was really a very intentional stepping stone for me. And so after I’d learned about consumer lending, and learned about point-of-sale finance, and learned about entrepreneurship, broadly speaking, I indicated to the board and to the management team that I had intention to be a founder, but I didn’t know what and I was extremely lucky in that, you know, both the management team at Octane and the board was supportive. And actually, most of them offered to help support whatever company I wanted to pursue. So I took six months and really systematically ran through a number of specialty finance businesses, put together hedge fund style 20-page reports on over 45 different verticals. And I was looking for a combination of really strong business fundamentals as well as something that was going to excite me from a mission perspective. And that’s really how I landed in LTO. It was a very intentional research-based process.
Peter Renton 04:06
So what was it that really attracted you to the lease-to-own? This niche, it’s not an obvious one really, for anybody, but what were the specific parts of that that was attractive to you?
Neal Desai 04:18
Yeah, you’re right. It’s not obvious, and it’s oftentimes overlooked, but it has really strong business fundamentals that are, you know, making a strong candidate for building a multibillion dollar business. Those characteristics are: it is one of the few places in the financing space broadly, that still has very high margin, very high positive unit economics; it has low lease duration, or loan duration. So in essence, that means you’re not carrying a lot of risk on your books for a long time. It is highly counter cyclical. And if you think about when Kafene was founded, which was back in 2019, it already felt like we were pretty long in the tooth from a bull market standpoint. I didn’t want to start a company that was indexed only to positive market dynamics, and so lease-to-own has high counter cyclical tendencies. And then finally, from a competitive standpoint, there are incumbents, but they are not super sophisticated. And so when I looked at our ability to use analytics and/or technology, I thought that we could win. So that on the business fundamentals side, those were the key things I was looking for. From the mission standpoint, what really resonated to me is that lease-to-own financing serves a niche that is a need for consumers, not a want. And what I mean by that is that they don’t have any options other than LTO, when they need LTO. Other types of financing, which we can discuss later, if you’d like, don’t really serve the need in the same way. And as a result, very difficult to substitute another product for this one. The final piece of that, and I think this probably extends to the majority of you know, people that you have on when you talk about the financing sector as it relates to nonprime consumers. It can often attract individuals who don’t necessarily abide by the highest standards. And I believe pretty strongly that we could come in and make a name for ourselves as being the fair, transparent, good guys in the space and build up an offering around just doing what customers deserve.
Peter Renton 06:25
So then, before we dig into Kafene, and get into the details, I’m curious, you said you spent a lot of time on Wall Street doing trading, was there anything back in that time that really helped you now, as a founder of at least one company?
Neal Desai 06:41
Everything was helpful. I don’t think I could do this, I really mean that, I don’t think I could do this, had I not be been a trader. You know, first and foremost, this is an extremely complicated business, there’s a lot of moving parts. And it requires a really sophisticated analytical ability to keep track of everything that’s going on, and understand pricing and credit performance and portfolios and things like that. So just those raw statistical analytical skills that I developed prove useful every single day. We also do carry a fair amount of what I’ll call portfolio risk. And understanding how to manage portfolio risk through different macro cycles through different exposures, geographical risks, term risk, duration, those types of things, are really important. And they really help set us up for success, regardless of whatever the market may throw at us. Those are sort of germane to LTO overall, but specifically to Kafene. There are two elements that also are important here. One, we have a communication language that is all around data. We don’t do things from gut or feel. Our discussions, regardless of what they’re about, are driven by data. And that is a very trader-oriented mentality, where it’s a ‘show me, don’t tell me’. The other one that is arguably even more important is that we take risks, and lots of them. We encourage all of our employees to make as many bets as they can. And we don’t care if we lose sometimes, right? In fact, if we’re doing it correctly, we’re making more bets that lose than we are making bets that win. But the ones that win, fundamentally change the arc of our business. And it’s okay and encouraged to take that kind of risk. So, you know, those are all really important. The last thing I’ll mention, you know, I like to joke that I don’t get scared. And that’s probably an overstatement. I think everybody gets scared if they’re honest with themselves. But we never make decisions based on fear, ever. And that’s a very difficult thing to gain control of. And I don’t think I’m perfect at it. But the 15 years I spent as a trader really help.
Peter Renton 08:49
Let’s dig into the Kafene offering. Can you explain how it works, the type of products you’re focused on, just all the details?
Neal Desai 08:59
Yeah, sure thing. So look, we finance durable goods, broadly speaking, okay. So that’s things like appliances, furniture, electronics, tires, etc. And I can use an example, you know, we’ll use tires just to kind of bring it to life. So, you know, imagine your nonprime consumer and you get a flat tire. You take your car into the shop, you know, all four tires need replacement. There’s labor expenses, there’s probably the fact that it was towed to the tire shop, there’s that expense. When all said and done, you might be looking at $1,500 as a total cost for putting new tires on your car. Now, for most consumers in this country, over 100 million of them, $1,500 is a real problem. They don’t have it. And you marry that to the fact that credit card capacity isn’t there at that amount. Okay? They can’t go to a payday lender and get $1,500. There’s just nowhere to get the money. So what we do is we partner with, in this case the tire shop, but it could be the appliance store or the furniture store or whatever other point of sale presence it is. We work with that tire store to have the consumer fill out an application on their smartphone. It takes about a minute and a half to fill out, it takes five seconds to decision, we come back with an approval amount. This is the key distinction, our approval amounts on average are now $2,700. Compare that with a buy now pay later approval amount that might be $300. When you’re talking about tires, or you’re talking about, you know, a laptop, or you’re talking about a new appliance, you don’t want to skimp on price. You want to get the quality product that you know will last you. And so it really is important to give that consumer sufficient buying power to get the quality they deserve. The consumer will get the tires, put on their car, drive home, the retailer gets paid or the merchant gets paid by us the same day. And we are now in an agreement with the consumer, whereby over typically 12 months, we will enter a payment stream, the end of which the consumer owns the tires.
Peter Renton 10:55
Okay, so a lot of things that are not obvious here. Maybe the first one is oftentimes these subprime consumers are subprime for a reason. Might not be anything to do with willingness to pay, it’s more ability to pay, right? And even the pain like you say it’s $1,500, can be like $200 a month or something like that. And obviously, you’re underwriting people to make sure they can afford that. Maybe you can just talk about the consumer, they are a high risk consumer for a reason, right?
Neal Desai 11:26
They are, and that’s a really great question, and I want to answer with some precision here. They are a consumer that by definition has either struggled with their prior credit related payment stream, or is not in the system at all. And I will point out that 25% of our consumers are just not in the system at all. So for the other 75%, however, we don’t look for perfect credit, we look for stable credit, okay, so we understand that life is going to deal you tough hands sometimes. And you may not be able to perform perfectly on every single obligation you have outstanding. But if you had some negative credit events 18 months ago, and since then you’ve been making your payments on a regular basis, we’re okay with that. Okay? So we’re looking for stability, not only in what’s being reported to the bureaus when we have that information, but also in things that are upstream of that. So things like: Do you have a job? Do you move frequently? How many cell phones have you been through? How many email accounts do you switch? If you are a generally stable individual, what we find is that you are generally able to make the payments to our agreements. And I say that very intentionally because there is a hierarchy as it relates to consumers’ desire and ability to make payments on different types of instruments. So the key is to sit as high as you can in that hierarchy. So that when things get tough we get paid back before maybe somebody else gets paid back. And the way that that happens in our product, specifically, is by the nature of the asset that it’s financing. So you know, tires, appliances, right? Laptops, these are things that consumers really need, and the regulatory structure that we use, which essentially states that this is a rental agreement, not a credit agreement. And as such, it’s secured by that asset itself. That combination of factors leads us to be near the top.
Peter Renton 13:29
Right, right. Can we just talk about the mechanics of that? Because someone pays for their tires for six months, and then can’t pay anymore? You’re not going to walk up to the house with a jack and take the tires off? Right? I mean how are you at the top? What are the mechanisms in place?
Neal Desai 13:42
Yeah, you know, it’s really interesting because you point to the example that a lot of people would use, which is the idea that someone’s just after six months going to decide they don’t want to pay us anymore. And then what are we going to do to you know, enforce that, and that’s the stick going to take someone’s tires. We try to use the carrot, and the right carrot is based on an understanding of why. Okay? So if a consumer has fatigued with the product itself, they just don’t want the tires. Now, that doesn’t typically happen. But you can imagine that for a sofa, or for a table, they may not want it anymore. Now, if they just don’t want it anymore, we work with that consumer to return it, the agreement is cancelled, there is no obligation to that consumer and that’s a right that the consumer has and that the consumer can use. And that’s just part of our business. Okay. On the other hand, if it is an issue with making the payments, we are extremely flexible, and we will work with them to modify the payment stream. So, you know, let’s say it’s $200 a month in the example that you just gave, can they do $100 a month? If so, they’ll do $100 a month and we’ll just extend the term. Do they need a payment holiday for three months if they’ve, you know, lost their job and they you know, they’re looking for another one like we’re okay doing that kind of thing too. And so we are not looking to prove a point by going in and taking tires. What we’re looking to do is keep the tires on the car and make sure that the consumer can enjoy the benefit of the good that they purchased. And if we have to be a little bit flexible to do that, that’s how we go about that.
Peter Renton 15:13
So are you reporting to the bureaus on this payment history?
Neal Desai 15:16
We are the only lease to own company that reports to all three major bureaus. Yes.
Peter Renton 15:20
So then I imagine that’s a carrot as well, right? That you use in your communication.
Neal Desai 15:24
It is, and we have a lot of consumers who take advantage of, in a positive way, we take advantage of the fact that we report and they will do multiple transactions, we’ve seen consumers that are nearing their 16th or 17th transaction. And we’ve only been in business for five years. So you know, and we like that, we’re happy to report on that consumer’s behalf to show that they are consistently entering agreements, closing them and have positive payment history.
Peter Renton 15:49
Well those sort of people, is their credit score improving over time because of these reports? I mean, sounds like they’re making successful payments, or else you wouldn’t underwrite them again. So how’s their situation changing?
Neal Desai 16:02
Yeah, you know, the good news is, yes, their credit score is improving. The bad news is that it doesn’t necessarily land them in the traditional credit system. And I think there is this idea, and it’s a false one, that we are somehow going to migrate a large percentage of the population from being nonprime into prime over a period of two to three years. And I just don’t think that’s a practical reality. I think the reality is that we can do what we can incrementally to move people’s credit scores into perhaps cheaper or better pricing, longer terms, they can get benefits from the other players in the ecosystem. But, to really solve this problem, it’s not about migrating people into better credit scores. It’s about offering better, more fair, more transparent structures that meet the needs of that consumer where they are.
Peter Renton 16:53
Okay, so let’s talk about the other side of the equation, like the merchant that is selling these tires, or sofas or fridges or whatever. I presume you’re going out and, are you targeting like national chains with national presence, you’re not going out to a mom and pop shop, I imagine, just onboarding one at a time, and how are you approaching that side of your business?
Neal Desai 17:13
Yeah, it’s actually counterintuitive, because we are going to the mom and pops one at a time. And the reason for that is with the exception of electronics, if you think about the categories I mentioned, call it furniture and tires, for the sake of argument. Eighty percent of the sales are done in mom and pops, these are local businesses that serve local clientele. And particularly when talking about the subprime demographic or the nonprime demographic, that is where they tend to purchase. And so mom and pops is a huge percentage of our business. We are also pursuing multi regionals and ultimately will start to think about going after some of the larger enterprise players. That’s probably in the next one to two years for us. We have been creating the infrastructure, the technology, the redundancy, etc., to properly serve the largest enterprise customers out there. But our bread and butter today is small to medium sized business.
Peter Renton 18:11
You must have a pretty efficient onboarding. It’s got to make economic sense, right? To onboard these.
Neal Desai 18:17
Yes.
Peter Renton 18:17
So tell us a little bit about how they’re onboarded.
Neal Desai 18:20
Yeah, so the onboarding is extremely efficient, and you’re absolutely right. Our technology does the talking so that we don’t have to, right? The way that we design our user interfaces, the way, in fact, even fundamental to the business model, is that the merchant doesn’t really have to understand that well, what’s going on between Kafene and the consumer. In other words, we push so much of the actual action to the consumer, rather than relying on the merchant to become an expert in lease-to-own, that they can essentially understand the benefit to their business. And I can talk about that in a second. But as long as the retailer understands the benefit to their business, they don’t need to become that smart on how everything works. The benefit to their business, of course, is that they are able to make sales, where you know, we’re not talking about increasing cart size here, we’re not talking about adding an incremental 20%. We’re talking about a make or break, they either can make the sale because the consumer can afford to make the purchase, or the sale doesn’t occur. And so our entire system is geared towards extremely rapid low merchant touch point of sale financing.
Peter Renton 19:26
Okay. Are you focusing your marketing on the B2B side rather than the B2C
Neal Desai 19:31
Exclusively.
Peter Renton 19:34
So, I’m curious about BNPL, which, obviously, when you started, BNPL was pretty big in 2019. Has the rise of BNPL been a tailwind for you guys? Has that really kind of helped? Because I imagine, suddenly, people have a bit more understanding, oh, there is another option other than just cash or credit. There’s this BNPL thing. How has that played in with the growth of Kafene?
Neal Desai 19:56
Yeah, I think if things had gone slightly differently, it would have been a very strong tailwind.
Peter Renton 20:02
Okay.
Neal Desai 20:03
And I say that because it did create significant awareness that the point of sale financing space has some really interesting dynamics and is, you know, sort of in its infancy still, the downside of the BNPL prevalence over the last few years is that it did get a little bit euphoric. And because it got euphoric, valuations became disconnected from business fundamentals. And a lot of investors lost a lot of money. And as a result, you know, oftentimes, they don’t want to necessarily understand the nuanced difference between a BNPL offering a lease-to-own offering, and potentially, you know, a different point of sale financing offering. And as such, a lot of people, I think, have just kind of washed their hands of the whole thing and said, “it’s too complicated, I don’t understand”. So, you know, in the early days before the valuations got crazy, it was a tailwind. Today, I think the BNPL, noise I’ll call it, is more of a distraction than anything else.
Peter Renton 21:03
So are you a lender? Because you sa y you’re doing a rental agreement, you said with these? So do you need lending licenses?
Neal Desai 21:12
We are not a lender. We are a rental company. Okay? And there’s a couple of elements here that really matter. But the biggest one is that consumers are under no obligation to complete their rental agreement, they can cancel anytime they can cancel after the first payment, no penalty. This is not a debt agreement. It does, however, to the extent that the consumer completes the full duration of their agreement, result in ownership for the consumer.
Peter Renton 21:41
So then, what about the performance? I mean, I can’t call it a loan portfolio, can we? But the performance of your asset portfolio, shall we say? How many people handed back? How many people pay in full for the full duration of the rental term? What are some of the stats you can share.
Neal Desai 21:59
So we have a small group that go the full 12 months, and that’s, you know, call it less than 10%. We have a small group that either returns or charges off. And that is, you know, sub 20%. And the vast majority will buy out their contract somewhere between three months and nine months. And when they buy out their contract, what they’re essentially doing is they’re converting what was a rental agreement into an outright purchase. And in doing so, there’s a large discount off of what would be the remaining balance on the rental agreement?
Peter Renton 22:34
So you mentioned this earlier in this interview about the lease-to-own space, having some unscrupulous actors. I mean, it doesn’t probably have a great reputation. Are you finding that people are more open? I’m thinking about the mom and pops that are out there? I mean, how are you sort of building trust?
Neal Desai 22:54
Yeah, it’s a really great question. And it has become fundamental to how we operate. So the first thing that I’ll say is that we don’t work with retailers who don’t care about their customers. And that is a lot of retailers out there. And what I mean by that, look, when there’s no expense associated with caring about your customers, everybody cares about their customers. But when one of the unscrupulous guys comes over and says, “okay, we’re going to pay you X percent for every lease you generate with us”. And then we come in, and we come in with a huge set of consumer benefits, we credit report, we risk base price, we’re cheaper, we’re more transparent, we’re fair, etc. But I’m not going to pay you that X percent, because, obviously, that’s coming from your customers pockets. If we can’t make the case to the retailer based on the consumer benefit, then we basically can’t compete in that retailer. Okay, so there is a huge section of retailers, where we acknowledge right off the bat that we’re not going to make the sale. So rather than try to deliver the biggest rebate, we try to deliver the best product at the best price.
Neal Desai 23:16
When people ask you how you make money, what do you say?
Neal Desai 24:05
We will apply a premium to whatever the depreciation cost of the asset is, that’s maybe the technical way to put it. The common sense way to put it would be your payment stream on $1,000 refrigerator is going to be somewhere between $1,000 and $2,000 depending on who you are. And when I say depending on who you are, we are the only lease-to-own company that will actually assign up to 10 different grades to grade you. Every other LTO company is going to charge you the maximum, in this example $2,000. What we do is we say, “all right, if we believe your risk is you know, serviceable at $1,200, your payment stream is $1,200. If we can do it for $1,400 your payment stream is $1,400 etc.” So every consumer gets a price that is unique to them that is inside of what the other guys charge. Now, if they can execute their early prepay options it’s even cheaper than that. Right? And so you blend all that stuff together. And the way we make our money is essentially by understanding pricing well enough to maximize our return, which is defined by the premium that we get, and the likelihood of contracting, right? Like we want to actually get this consumer to accept the offer. Because it’s so expensive, with the other guys, a lot of consumers don’t take the offer, the store loses and the lease-to-own company loses, in our view.
Peter Renton 25:33
When you’re looking at the growth of your business, what are the big challenges now? Is it really just a case of getting in front of more mom and pops when you talk about enterprise? What are some of the growth things that you’re looking to put in place?
Neal Desai 25:49
There’s a lot of dimensions here. I can point to a few of them, right? So, one dimension is, as we discussed, we are primarily in the SMB space, we’re starting to diversify into multi regionals. But we will start to meaningfully enter enterprise in the next year or two, right? So there’s a little bit of a, how do we take what’s really been working in our existing client set and then migrate that to an enterprise? On that, I want to comment really quickly, because we are so bespoke, because we are the only LTO out there that risk base prices and moves all of the different pricing levers to accommodate what really works in that store, we are actually incredibly well set up to handle an enterprise customer that has 500, or 2000 stores, and really optimized for each different store. So that’s really, you know, a matter of taking what we’re already doing well, and moving it into an enterprise setting. There is also the dimension of online versus offline. And we haven’t talked about it yet. But our entire offering today is offline. It’s physical brick and mortar locations. Now, that’s counterintuitive. And it’s probably very different from the majority of guests that you have on. But again, it points to where the buying behavior is. So the buying behavior for our demographic is primarily offline. Now, that will not always be true. And some of our retailers, especially as we are starting to scale up, are asking for an omni channel experience, a unified online and offline offering. So that’s another dimension that we’ll enter later this year. But it’s already under development. The final element is that we continue to push the experience towards the consumer. So it still requires, today, some degree of merchant facilitation. But taking to an extreme, a returning customer should not need any merchant facilitation. They should be able to come in somehow, and transact automatically. People have thought about using virtual cards, they’ve thought about using, you know, iframe-based solutions, they’ve thought about a bunch of different ways to get this done. But that is, I think, I don’t think anyone has cracked it yet. And I know a firm has worked on it, and Klarna has worked on it. And I don’t think anyone’s quite cracked the nut. But that is really going to be another dimension over the next three to five years that will inform not just LTO. But I would argue point of sale finance, broadly speaking.
Peter Renton 28:06
Can you give us a sense of what scale you guys are at today?
Neal Desai 28:09
Look, we’re growing 100% or more year over year and have been for six months. We expect that growth rate to continue. That will put us at the end of the year on a run rate from a revenue standpoint of through to $100 million.
Peter Renton 28:24
Okay, so the last question, then: You have this opportunity here to become sort of the defining company in the lease-to-own space. But what’s your vision for the company? You talked about multiple billion dollar potential. How are you going to get there? What’s your vision?
Neal Desai 28:41
I don’t think of ourselves as an LTO company. Right? I think of ourselves as a company that is developing multiple capabilities, the most important ones of which are really deep and sophisticated credit strategy. And the tie in to really deep retailer analytics. Okay? So we solve for specific challenges in specific stores. And we use credit and pricing, and even capital markets expertise to help support whatever the best way is to help that store make sales. Now in the durable goods category in the nonprime segment, the answer is LTO. In categories like auto repair, or medical elective, it might be an installment loan or a retail installment contract. Okay? We are relatively agnostic to the regulatory structure that we are using to effectuate that will come for consumers and merchants, what we focus on is making sure that we’re solving the biggest highest need with the most sophisticated solution that we can. Our big goal internally and our differentiator will always be that we come in with a very sophisticated approach to whatever problem we’re solving one that’s like really tailored and mathematical in its approach
Peter Renton 29:59
Best of luck. It’s really a fascinating business that you’ve built here and doing good work. So thanks for coming on the show today.
Neal Desai 30:06
Thank you very much, really appreciate it and happy to come back anytime.
Peter Renton 30:11
Well, I hope you enjoyed the show. Thank you so much for listening. Please go ahead and give the show a review on the podcast platform of your choice and go tell your friends and colleagues about it. Anyway, on that note, I will sign off. I very much appreciate your listening, and I’ll catch you next time. Bye.