Lily Liu, CEO of Piñata, on creating a credit building and rewards program for renters

When it comes to paying for a place to live, the economic benefits have always skewed towards homeowners, with renters getting no credit for all their on-time rent payments. But that is changing today. Piñata is helping millions of renters across America build their credit score and earn rewards with their rent payments.

In this episode, CEO and Co-Founder Lily Liu reveals how her company is transforming rent payments into a powerful credit-building tool by reporting on-time payments to all three credit bureaus, while renters earn tangible rewards at everyday brands. Born during the chaos of the pandemic, Piñata has evolved from a two-sided marketplace into a fintech powerhouse now partnering with giants like Freddie Mac to make credit building a standard benefit for renters nationwide. Lily shares the strategic pivots, the regulatory complexities of consumer credit reporting, and why solving this problem required rethinking rent as more than just an expense.

In this podcast you will learn:

• The founding story of Piñata.
• Why launching the company at the height of the pandemic was good timing.
• How they were able to get landlords on board.
• Why they use a carrot, rather than a stick, to encourage renters to pay on time.
• How the Piñata rewards program works for renters.
• The two different ways renters can join Piñata.
• The average increase in credit score for a typical Piñata customer.
• How Piñata is very different to Bilt.
• How they differentiate themselves from others in the credit building space.
• The demographic that is most attracted to Piñata.
• What their partnership with Freddie Mac means.
• Why some renters are opting out of the home ownership dream.
• How Piñata Pay, launching in 2026, will work.
• How they are going to scale Piñata so the majority of people can get credit for rent payments.
• Lily’s vision for the future of Piñata.

Read a transcription of our conversation below.

Fintech One on One Podcast No. 558: Lily Liu

Lily Liu:

So our rewards program is, think about it as an accretive and protective rewards program for renters. So renters are able to, at the core, we tie it to their on-time rent payment. They’re getting the credit score boost. And so what we do is we actually take that on-time rent payment and we’re reporting it to all three credit bureaus. So you have that trade line for your rent payment and you’re seeing those on-time rent payments hit.

And that’s a huge benefit for consumers because it’s actually one of the few debt free ways for a consumer to build and boost their credit score. You don’t have to take out a loan. You don’t have to take out a credit card. All you’re doing is hopefully what you were doing prior to being introduced to Piñata. You’re paying your rent on time, except now you’re getting that reflected in your credit score and on your credit report.

Peter Renton:

This is the Fintech One-on-One podcast, the show for Fintech enthusiasts looking to better understand the leaders shaping Fintech and banking today. My name is Peter Renton and since 2013, I’ve been conducting in-depth interviews with Fintech founders and banking executives. Today, I am delighted to welcome Lily Liu, the CEO and co-founder of Piñata.

Now, Piñata is a fintech company focused on providing the tens of millions of renters with rewards for paying their rent on time. Most renters today receive no financial benefit for paying rent, their largest monthly expense. Now, Piñata is changing that equation by helping renters build credit through on-time rent payments while earning tangible rewards at everyday brands.

In our conversation, Lily shares how the company launched during the height of COVID navigated the challenges of a two-sided marketplace and is now partnering with major players like Freddie Mac to make credit building a standard benefit for renters nationwide. Now let’s get on with the show.

Welcome to the podcast, Lily.

LL: Thanks for having me, Peter. Excited to be on it.

PR: My pleasure, my pleasure. So let’s kick it off by giving the listeners a little bit of background about yourself. It looks like this, this is not your first rodeo here at Piñata. So why don’t you give us some of the highlights of what you’ve done in your career to date.

LL: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It is not, but hopefully I have many more to go. I started my career in a totally different space, actually. I started working in government and technology. I was at the federal level, I went to work out in Long Beach in LA County for a number of years in a management rotational program. So I got to see all different parts of what makes our cities run and operate and how politics is woven into it all.

My next stint was with Mayor Bloomberg’s office, on the Department of Ed in special projects. And when I left that position, I ended up starting my first tech company, which was really focused on a lot of the pain points I saw at the local government level. So namely, how difficult it was at that time and continues to be in reality to contact your local government around specific services. And so I built with my co-founders, one of the first web and mobile based 311 platforms. So non-emergency 911. We scaled it to a whole bunch of communities and cities in the U.S. went to other English speaking communities and we were eaten up by a company called Excella. Their vision and mission was government in the cloud as a service. So we fit pretty beautifully into their tech stack. And then I took a little time off to travel, advised a couple of early stage companies.

And then for whatever crazy reason decided to get back into into it all and start another company. And so this company with Piñata, I remember meeting with my now co-founders really right at the start of COVID. And we were talking a lot about the pain points in the rental industry and our mission and vision has remained the same. Let’s actually make renting suck less. So let’s make it more rewarding and accretive for everyone in the ecosystem in the chain of renting from renters to properties and now even to channel and brand partners in the ecosystem.

PR: So you launched it sounds like right in the thick of the pandemic. I what was that timing like?

LL: Yeah. You know, it an interesting time to start any company, but certainly in the rental space, you know, most of us can recall just how heated the rental space was, it was a tricky time for renters and for landlords and property management companies, very tense environment between the two parties. And in fact, it was a great time for us to launch Piñata because we were able to iterate quickly and get very fast feedback on what was really going to move the needle for the landlords and the properties and ultimately how we can quickly improve the renting experience for renters. Mean. There was a moratorium. Some renters weren’t paying rent. Eviction policies were no longer in place. And so if you had a mortgage out as a landlord, cashflow became an issue and hitting your payment obligation. So it was a really challenging market.

We were able to iterate and test a whole bunch of early value props. And in what we got pretty fast feedback on by the end of that first year or first calendar year in COVID was really the fact that property owners and operators were cash strapped. So they needed to really continue building that relationship with renters and collect their rent payment. Like that, that was a huge pain point for them during that initial year. And then for renters, they weren’t seeing any boost in amenities or services. In fact, some of them weren’t able to receive basic maintenance services during that time. And so it was for them, how do we improve the renting experience? And then how do we also give them more back for that renting experience? So building and boosting credit scores became an obvious one that we leaned in on after that first year. And then the second piece was how do we actually start putting dollars back in their pocket at everyday brands that they already know and love and they’re already spending at.

PR: Yeah, so I think the value proposition for renters is pretty obvious. Like if you want to get more out of your rent payment, then what you’re providing is sort of has a lot of value. I’m just curious about the other side of the equation, like the property managers, because there are lots of mom and pop landlords, right? And there’s also some massive, massive landlords. But from my understanding of this industry, they’re somewhat resistant to change. mean, how, like what resistance did you get from the landlords and how did you overcome that?

LL: Yeah, you know, think resistance on the landlord side, no one really pushed back on the core value prop of helping their renters build and boost their credit score with every on time rent payment. We’ve always focused on this inequity between homeowners and renters and homeowners with every on time mortgage payment, they’re building and boosting their credit score. Hopefully they’re building equity in that asset they invested in.

Now that doesn’t always work out on the equity building side, but certainly on the credit building side for homeowners, it does. And for renters that became very quickly in our early days, one of our core value props for renters and then for the property owners and operators. It’s actually great when your assets have higher credit score ratings across the renter base. And so whether it’s single family, mid-market multifamily or the large multifamily home players, we work with all asset types and classes. And it’s a pretty key factor for any owner to ensure that that credit score rating is directionally moving, moving up and to the right. You want your assets to and your renters to have good credit score ratings.

PR: Sure. Obviously the property owner wants high rent and on time rent and a renter wants low rent and and not necessarily is not all that motivated to pay on time unless there’s consequences, which obviously there can be. But I’m just curious about the tension between the two where you’re going out there to both sides. But is there as much tension as one would think?

LL: Yeah, we, you know, we used to hear this in the early days as a potential point of conflict with the property owners and operators. So what we used to hear, actually don’t hear it much anymore is owners and operators love their late fees. They love their late fees. You know, they’d rather have just a chunk of their rents who are consistently late so they can collect on those late fees. Over the years, the more deeply we’ve worked with independent landlords and third party professional property management companies, they want their on time and in full rent payment. They want to be able to collect that on time. And if that goes off without a hitch every month, they’re building a sustainable business. And this is, and many of them have pretty heavy cash requirements monthly, cash outflows monthly in order to operate their properties and support their own staff and team on site. And so this is for us that that tension actually ended up not being as big of an issue.

Now listen, in reality, you’re always going to have a percentage of renters that will pay their rent late. We have leaned much more heavily on the reward, the candy and not the stick to motivate renters to get that rent payment in on time. And in fact, behavioral nudges like Piñata’s program, but across all verticals, there’s real data to back up that those behavioral nudges and the behavioral science behind it and what actually makes consumers take action. And actually one of the biggest things is the fear of missing out. And so what we build is this monthly, it’s actually more than monthly, it’s a weekly cadence on what you can get as a renter. The more you’re putting aside for rent every month so you can hit your on time rent payment target, you unlock a whole bunch of benefits and boosts in Piñata. And those are the behavioral nudges because if you missed out on the blender, the Sonos speakers last month, you’re really focused on not missing out on that opportunity next month. And so that’s really where those nudges come into play.

PR: Right. Okay. So let’s talk about the carrots for the renters. Maybe you can just describe how does your rewards program actually work?

LL: Yeah, so our rewards program is think about it as an accretive and protective rewards program for renters. So renters are able to at the core, we tie it to their on time rent payment. They’re getting the credit score boost. And so what we do is we actually take that on time rent payment and more reporting it all three credit bureaus. So you have that trade line for your rent payment and you’re seeing those on time rent payments hit. And that’s a huge benefit for consumers because it’s actually one of the few debt free ways for consumer to build and boost their credit score. You don’t have to take out a loan. You don’t have to take out a credit card. All you’re doing is hopefully what you were doing prior to being introduced to Piñata. You’re paying your rent on time, except now you’re getting that reflected in your credit score and on your credit report.

The other component is you’re getting points in Piñata. Points in pinata rather are worth real world dollars with hundreds of brands that we have cycle through the rewards ecosystem on a weekly and a monthly basis. Where we focus on the reward partners are everyday brands that our renters know and love. We focus much less on travel and hotel points. We are focused on how you’re shopping every day. So Amazon, Target, Walmart, big box store memberships. We want to get you access to these brands where you’re going grocery shopping your pharmacy clothing essentials for your family. Kitchenware and technology products and pet related products ranked very highly amongst our renters and so that’s the value of taking earning your Piñata points and Being able to actually have that reflected the services in the brands that you were doing.

PR: What’s the mechanics like? How does that work? Like, do you have a bank account? Do people have to open up a Piñata bank account?

LL: So no, people do not have to open up a bank account. All they have to do is pay their rent on time and in full. And so we pull that rent payment data from a variety of different methods. if you’re, so there’s two ways in which you can join Piñata. One is to your landlord or property management company. They can sign you up for Piñata and they are sponsoring your Piñata membership. And so they can actually give you access to your Piñata program.

And then you’re able to unlock all those points in value, but we are pulling your rent payment data from them and their property management software system every single month in order to confirm that on-time rent payment with renters directly. have different ways in which we confirm your rent payment, but you can sign up today as a renter directly with Piñata outside of your landlord or property management company.

PR: Okay. And so you’re just pulling the rent data in some form. And then how does the trade line work? So you’re reporting to all three bureaus. What are the mechanics for doing that? Since it’s not obviously a trade line that Piñata has, what’s the mechanics there?

LL: Yeah, we open up the trade line. so, Pinata has a direct relationship with all three credit bureaus. So, it is a Piñata trade line.

PR: Okay.

LL: So, you’ll see Pinata rent show up on your trade line. And then, you’ll see the on-time rent payments hit monthly. That’s reflected in your credit report.

PR: Okay. And then obviously if the property manager is paying for it, if someone’s just signing up, what’s the cost there?

LL: Yeah. Yeah. So you mean if a renter is just signing up?

PR: Yeah. Yeah. Renter is just signing up.

LL: So if a renter is signing up directly, simple, it’s $5 a month for access to Pinata’s membership program. That’s where you’re to get the points and the credit reporting benefits as a part of Piñata.

PR: Okay. And then do you get like one point for every dollar on your rent or how does it work?

LL: Yeah, so it’s actually not based on your total rent amount. Every month, renters are unlocking a set number of points that they can save or spend every single month. We’ve designed the program, so there’s always something you can get for your instant gratification renters. If you’re saving up for one of the bigger items, again, you have a digital wallet within Piñata, so you can keep your points, keep racking up your points every single month. We’ve had renters who use their points two years later and they’ve been saving up for one of our very large items and they’re able to unlock that.

PR: Okay, interesting. So then what have you seen as far as impact goes? For most people their rent is their biggest monthly expense and many of them may not have many other trade lines. What have you’re seeing as far as impact on credit scores?

LL: Yeah, so average impact on credit scores. Well, again, it really ranges. There’s so many factors to a consumer’s credit score. So have you opened up another card or loan recently? Have you closed a card or an account recently? Are you in default on another account? So I guess I’ll preface by saying it can vary wildly based on your current activity in a given period. But on average, we see about a 60 point credit score boost. We’ve seen as high as 100. And then of course we’ve seen some with lower impact, but on average around that 60 point mark, which pretty phenomenal given that renters again are not taking out any additional debt or loans in order to do that.

PR: Right. Right. And what about for those people that are splitting rent? I I presume you have to have the rent payment coming out of your bank account or how does that work if you have multiple people sharing one place?

LL: Yeah, so in roommate situations, we can absolutely recognize each roommate and their portion of rent for that unit.

PR: Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. so let’s talk about the competitive landscape because, whereas if you go back, you know, five, six years, there was really nothing. Renters didn’t have any, get any rewards from paying their rent. was just a, it was a barren landscape, shall we say. Now today it’s, you’re obviously, you’re not alone. I mean, we have Bilt who has a very large presence in FinTech anyway. And they’re doing seemingly quite well. I was curious actually, that, you think Bilt has, has that helped or hurt your business overall?

LL: You know, I think the built in pinata in many ways, while we’re both in the same rent reward space, functionally in the payment side, we’re very different. know, they, they are still a credit card company with, you know, the big rewards commerce play at the local level. We do not have a credit card play, nor are we focused on that front right now with our consumers and our renters. It’s really, you know, a two horse race here, we continue to elevate the industry expectations and standards for rent, loyalty, rewards, and financial services. And I think that’s the important thing to really that we are always focused on. And it’s great for us when built as well, you know, and it’s great for them when we do well. And we start to partner with a whole bunch of additional channel partners in the space because now, when we enter in conversations, whether it’s with a property management company, or even one of these platform companies, everyone understands that renters now should be accessing more than what they’ve historically been getting as a baseline, that the renter journey is financially valuable in a big market. There’s a big TAM there. should look, we should take it seriously. And so that’s, that’s been great for us and for the industry.

PR: A lot of people, as you said, don’t really care about the travel points and the hotel points and transferring to different things. And people would much rather get an espresso machine or a mixer or a gift card or something. I do appreciate the fact that you have that approach that’s different. Now I think what I see is that the market now is, I could easily see within 10 years, 90 % of the rent of population is getting some sort of benefit rewards.

The other thing I’m curious about is…there’s obviously lots of people now that are helping boost credit scores, offering rent reporting. mean, I know like Experian Boost, I don’t think they had rent reporting when they launched, but I think they do now. And then there’s Self, Boom, Stake, there’s others in the industry. How are you differentiating yourself from those players?

LL: There’s always a kind of different flavor take on it. I think how we differentiate from all of the companies is that we’ve really leaned in to this idea of an experience and a membership program for renters. That’s where Piñata is completely different from some of the names and a bunch of others in this space, some of the names you listed and others, is that Piñata is giving renters a full membership experience that they can carry with them lease over lease. Irregardless of who they’re renting from, you’re earning points and those points hold value. You’re building credit and we can do that irregardless of who you’re renting from. Again, your landlord does not have to sign you up. Some models require that. And then we have a whole bunch of additional services that renters can sign up for as a part of their Piñata benefits. Things like renters insurance that protects their contents in their rental unit. We have other identity protection services in place that renters can opt into and a whole bunch of new benefits launching in ‘26 as well.

PR: What is the typical demographic that you find is attracted to pinata?

LL: Yeah, so our biggest demo is 25 to 55, but the first is 25 to 35. And so that’s our top category from an age perspective. And then interestingly, 45 to 55, we have a big segment in that market. We actually, early on, we thought we’d lean much younger, right? People building, you getting their first bank account, really starting to build their credit. But what we’re seeing is it’s actually folks that have jobs, maybe early young families, and then folks that are actually also entering into an early retirement phase as well. So we’re seeing a really interesting mix and distribution across the market.

PR: Okay, so I was reading about your partnership with Freddie Mac. Now this sounds like a pretty big deal. Why don’t you tell us how that came about and what it is all about.

LL: Absolutely. So Freddie Mac has a great program. They are funding the credit reporting program and we’re one of the first companies, I think we are the only company actually in their program that has rent reporting and rent rewards and loyalty all bundled into one package. And so that’s what the Freddie Mac program focuses on. Again, their segment and footprint is heavy in affordable housing and so we’re really measuring the credit score impact for those renters and those assets to really help these renters start to build the recognition on their credit scores and histories that they deserve for that on-time rent payment.

PR: In some ways, lot of renters are focused on this being a temporary living situation and they’re moving towards owning property. I’m just curious about how you think about people graduating from renting to owning.

LL: You know, we love the story of renters that eventually or they, know, when they actually get to that home ownership point, uh, it’s, it’s a really natural evolution. And what we also see is a lot of homeowners end up becoming renters again. And the way we look at rentership is it’s a very fast growing segment of the market. This is a portion of the market that doesn’t actually see renting as temporary lifestyle decision, where they’re just waiting to buy a home. Again, we think it’s beautiful when renters can buy homes when they want to. But what we’re seeing is a larger percentage of the market wants to be renters continually. That is the dream, right? Having flexibility with your cash assets and how you make investments and save for other things in your life that real estate and owning a home is no longer the only valuable asset. In many cases, it could be a risky asset in some markets, right? Risky investments in some markets. So I think consumers with access now to a whole bunch of fintech investing platforms, we can do a lot more with our dollars that we both save on those dollars. And so that’s what we’re seeing with rentership. It’s given the market how difficult it is to own homes and I think that’s also something that we’re seeing impact the market. Renters are not motivated or excited by owning homes today, you know, and it’s just given the rates and how difficult it is in some markets to buy that home. And, and so it’s interesting to see just how aggressive the growth is on the renter side. But listen, I think for us, we try to support renters, you’re regardless. So if you’re going to buy a home, how can we get the right services in front of you to help you think through that home ownership journey as well.

PR: Okay, so I want to talk about Pinata Pay because I see there’s a page for it on your website here, upcoming no fee checking account that rewards renters for every dollar saved and spent. It looks like it’s a debit. It comes with a debit card. Tell us a little bit about what you’re doing there.

LL: So with Piñata Pay in 2026, we’re going to open it up to be much bigger. We’ve always loved the vision of pay rent, get your rewards, build credit. On the pay rent side, Piñata Pay really allows for renters to finally have a place to park their money for rent. Every single week, every single day, when you put more dollars aside towards your rent, you’re getting more points in Piñata. We’re also incentivizing you from that account to pay your rent on time. And it makes the credit building components much easier because it’s just fully embedded and integrated into Piñata Pay. So we’re excited there’s gonna be a whole bunch of other additional perks as a part of Piñata Pay, but that’s free and optional for renters to engage in.

PR: Gotcha. Interesting. Okay. So I was reading somewhere that there’s roughly 5 % of America’s 80 million renters currently get credit for their rent payments. There’s a big market out there and what do you think it’s going to take to get from where we are now to there?

LL: Yeah, you know, it’s, it’s a good question. It’s something we’ve been tracking, you know, when we first started, it was sub 2 % of Americans that were receiving any kind of credit score recognition on their credit reports. We’ve more than doubled that since we started across the country. And so listen, I think there’s so much more to go here. And, we even see renters still need that education that they can get that rent payment reported to the credit bureaus and a lot of them are afraid it’s going to negatively impact their credit score. And I think that there’s an education gap that we have to fill with consumers in the market on what types of rent reporting services are out there, what it can do and what it should and will not do to your credit report and credit score. And then the other factor is generally that impact your credit report and the variability there. So I think in addition to rent reporting, what are all the additional factors that consumers need to be aware of that can impact your credit report. And then of course, adoption across B2B platforms that can move the needle here. it’s individual landlords, it’s property management companies, it’s also the platforms that really have access to a large pool of renters. And so how do we all collectively make this an industry standard? If you pay your rent on time, you should have this recognition. And the last component is the regulatory landscape, you know, more states are requiring this as a baseline benefit for renters. So the state of California, for example, introduced something called AB 2747, which requires that rental units above a certain size have to offer credit reporting for their renters. Because again, it’s, it’s a no brainer. If you’re paying your rent on time, you should have that positive reflection on your credit score. If you choose to have it.

PR: That’s a nice tailwind for you guys as well, I imagine, to get those companies signed up who have to sign up with somebody, right?

LL: Yeah, yeah, that’s right.

PR: Okay. So then I’d like to close with sort of getting a sense of what you’re most excited about with Piñata and what’s maybe you could weave in sort of what your vision is as well for the future of the company.

LL: Yeah, you know, it’s the future of pinata is bright. You know, we have properties, we have millions of renters on the platform. Now we’re partnering with channel partners. So property management software systems have embedded Piñata, payment processing platforms. Other PropTech and FinTech companies are embedding Piñata into their ecosystem. So you’re really going to start to see pinata everywhere. So if you’re a renter where you’re paying rent, or you’re filing your maintenance issues, even other fintech services and HR benefit companies will start to introduce Piñata. And so we’re excited about 2026. We’re also starting to work with brands more deeply on the reward side within Piñata. So today you get hundreds of dollars in rewards value back just for paying your rent on time. That will more than double in 2026 through the brand partners who are really deepening those relationships. And then finally, you’re going to see some more financial, some more fintech features within Piñata as well. So lots to come in ‘26.

PR: All right, we’ll have to leave it there, Lily. Really interesting learning more about Piñata. It’s great work you’re doing. think renters should be rewarded for their on-time rent payments and glad that you have built something that is helping them do just that. So anyway, thanks so much for coming on the show today, Lily.

LL: Thanks for having me.

PR: There has always been a fundamental inequity between homeowners and renters. Much has been made about the pursuit of homeownership as a key part of the American dream, and the tax system is set up to reward homeowners over renters. Despite that, as Lily points out, renting is increasingly becoming a lifestyle choice, not just a temporary state. Many people are choosing to remain renters long term, for flexibility to avoid real estate risk and just to deploy their capital differently. And while the tax code won’t be changing anytime soon to benefit renters, fintechs like Piñata are building the systems to recognize and reward responsible rent payment behavior. And the fact that only 5% of renters currently get credit for rent payments up from under 2% when Piñata launched shows both the progress being made and the enormous opportunity ahead.

Anyway, that’s it for today’s show. If you enjoy these episodes, please go ahead and subscribe, tell a friend, or leave a review. And thank you so much for listening.