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Every bank that decides to get into the Banking-as-a-Service (BaaS) space already has an existing legacy business. Most of those legacy businesses have very little crossover with fintech and BaaS, so internally at the bank, there is a completely new skill set that needs to be developed. But then there are those banks that were born digital and for which BaaS is a natural extension of their existing business.
My next guest on the Fintech One-on-One podcast is Mike Butler, the CEO of Grasshopper Bank. I first had Mike on the show back in 2019, when he was the CEO of Radius Bank – that was the bank that LendingClub acquired in 2021. So, Mike is back at the helm of another digital bank, bringing his deep experience in BaaS and digital banking. And he has big plans for Grasshopper.
In this podcast you will learn:
- How Mike went from selling Radius Bank to becoming CEO of Grasshopper.
- The core offerings of Grasshopper.
- Why Grasshopper has a “work from away” culture.
- How much they focus on BaaS versus serving customers directly.
- The core learnings he brought from Radius Bank to Grasshopper.
- Who Mike thinks of as his main competitors.
- How the BaaS challenges of 2024 impacted Grasshopper.
- Why you can’t dip your toe in the water when it comes to BaaS.
- How have the expectations of fintechs changed.
- The types of fintechs they work with today.
- Why they decided to acquire Auto Club Trust, an insurance company.
- Where Mike sees the future growth for Grasshopper.
Read a transcription of our conversation below.
FINTECH ONE-ON-ONE PODCAST NO. 525 – MIKE BUTLER
Mike Butler: We’ve had a really fundamental shift in hiring that went from hiring bankers and trying to kind of get them involved in technology to hiring technology-oriented people and teaching them banking. The evolution of the industry from what, and again, I’m not being critical of anybody else’s strategy, but it’s hard to say, “You know, for a hundred years I’ve been working in branches, and I understand branch operations, and I understand how to clear checks”, to say, “I’d like you to go and figure out how you can open up a digital checking account in three minutes.” It just doesn’t work that easily. So what we decided was, I think that’s a hard cultural evolution. Let’s hire the digital guys that think about Amazon as where they play every day, and teach them, how can we turn Amazon into a bank infrastructure and think of it that way.
Peter Renton: This is the Fintech One-on-One Podcast, the show for fintech enthusiasts looking to better understand the leaders shaping fintech and banking today. My name is Peter Renton and since 2013, I’ve been conducting in-depth interviews with fintech founders and banking executives. On the show today, I am delighted to welcome back Mike Butler, the president and CEO of Grasshopper Bank, a digital bank serving small businesses and fintechs across the country. Now, Grasshopper is a BaaS bank, but they also serve small businesses directly and have a robust deposit-gathering business. And as you will learn towards the end of this interview, Grasshopper has much bigger plans as they look to expand their digital offerings. Now let’s get on with the show.
Welcome back to the podcast, Mike.
MB: Thanks for having me.
PR: My pleasure. So the last time we chatted was actually several years ago, back in 2019, you were running Radius Bank and, it was probably a year or two before you sold to Lending Club. I know you just sort of built up a BaaS offering there. And since then, obviously there’s been a lot of changes. You sold the bank to Lending Club and you’ve got this new gig now. So, maybe you could tell us about what attracted you to Grasshopper, and why did you want to get back in the game after selling Radius Bank?
MB: Well, you know, listen, there’s the obvious, right? If you’re a kind of quasi founder, and that’s what you do, you kind of sell your baby, it’s hard to get out, right? So that’s our passion for digital banking, it’s real. In transactions like that, there’s not room for sometimes two people. So, you know, those things happen, it’s real. The second thing I would tell you is that at the final legs of our journey with Radius, we started to get into PPP lending, and we started to advance our offerings to small businesses. And we kind of felt that that was the next great area for disruption, and that we didn’t really have a chance as a team to kind of fulfill that desire to kind of penetrate that part of the market and with Lending Club, they were predominantly consumer and weren’t going to do that either. So I think the option of, you know, maybe having some time to kind of pursue something, the opportunity that we got excited about small businesses. And then Grasshopper shows up with some familiar capital that had also invested in Radius and also on this journey that we had been talking about and how you serve the business and innovation economy with digital solutions was just really exciting.
PR: Interesting. Okay. Then maybe you could just take us through what grasshopper does say. What are the offerings that you have?
MB: Yes, but Grasshopper is evolving, right? So, you know, I’ll see if I can keep pace. Tomorrow will be a different day. But, you know, we really would say right from the beginning, in its simplest way, is that Grasshopper is there to serve the business and innovation economy, and specifically those clients that want to work with a digital bank that is focused on delivering financial services via their kind of digital platforms. And so we’re a full service bank, but we are digital. And our digitization of the business continues to evolve. But that business community, which includes small businesses, venture capital, SBA, and commercial real estate, are all part of that ecosystem inside the business world that’s evolving dramatically and is really demanding this delivery of their digital products and services in a much different way using technology. So that’s who we’re after. That’s our client base. You know, we do it, you know, we’re kind of experts on the deposit side, I’d say. You know, we offer great depository products into all of our client bases that are all digital, all have these award-winning platforms that we’ve put together that allow that. And now we’ve started to kind of get more focused on how we can deliver the lending side more digitally, right from the smallest business up to the larger, more complicated venture capital company. And the technology that we’re kind of putting together is exciting about what we’re going to be able to do in those spaces. But that’s how I would describe it, you know, if that works for you.
PR: Yeah. For sure. So then you’re a digital only bank, but where are you domiciled? Like, are you a New York bank?
MB: We are a New York-based bank, but we have been a, we call it a “Work From Away” culture that was really formed even before the pandemic. We learned at Radius that first of all, with technology, and good technology, you didn’t necessarily need to be location specific to do your job. We also found that if you could, as it’s pretty simple, but if you can increase the breadth of your search for talented people that didn’t have to be geocentric, then you might have a better opportunity to hire more talented people who might be more interested in working with the organization. So we are dispersed all over the country as it relates to people. Now we tend to have little hubs in places like New York and Boston in a little bit, maybe that has developed in the Charlotte area. But those aren’t requirements for us. We hire people that, you know, we think that fit the culture of the company top to bottom. And if they’re located in an area where we can congregate together, cool. If they like to congregate together, cool. If they don’t, that’s good. You know, again, you’re getting into one of our important cultures, but we’re about hiring kind of what I would call adults who understand and respect the work from away concept. And I think at the end of the day, we tend to hire people who perform at a higher level than those that would otherwise be maybe geocentrically located.
PR: So then, looking at your offerings, I mean, you are serving lots and lots of small businesses directly, but you also have a BaaS business, right? So how much of your focus is on BaaS versus serving customers directly?
MB: Yeah, so it’s a great question, Peter, I think an important one. I think from our perspective, when I called us a full service bank. So I’d bring you back to the Radius days and for whatever it’s worth, our first client in the banking as a service business before it was even called banking as a service, was a company called LevelUp and a guy, Seth Priebatsch. And he had a really interesting technology to try and change the point of sale experience, both from a cost and a customer experience perspective. We wanted to partner with them and this was 2013. And we found the partnership and we launched it. It didn’t work the way we wanted to, but we surely kind of started to dip our toe in something that we felt was really important to recognize. And that was the fintech evolution is real and that there is business that’s going to move away from traditional banking, but that business in many cases will want and need a banking partner to be successful. And we started to kind of draw up this concept of, can we build a branch at the corner of LevelUp and Radius and kind of find our clients that way. So if you think about a digital bank and a company like LevelUp, or later on in our journey, was Aspiration, or further down the road was Brex, these companies were attracting technophiles into their ecosystem that eventually wanted banking services that we were there to serve. But that was the original idea of how banking as a service would work. First of all, embrace it, accept it, and find a way to partner in it. Where just a portion of our banking is coming from banking as a service, 25 % is what our goal would be at the end of the day, to say earnings and relationships, maybe not relationships, but earnings would come from that type of business. And we also find that if we’re in digital banking itself, and that’s what we do for a living, then talking with fintechs is kind of second nature to us. And so we understand the digital kind of concept of what they’re trying to accomplish. We understand we bring the banking and compliance side to it. They bring a little bit of the fintech side. And a lot of times we become design partners with these guys. So it’s kind of core for us to say that, you know, fintechs are a part of our ecosystem, providing services into that group, when it makes sense to form partnerships we will. We are a quality over quantity shop. We only want to deal with 30 to 40 maybe fintechs at any given time. And we want to keep it to a certain percent of our overall earnings.
PR: Gotcha. Okay. So then you’ve touched on some of the things I think that you’ve brought with you from your learnings at Radius, but maybe if you could just dive in a little deeper there, when you look at your time at Radius Bank there and all the things that you learned about operating a bank in the digital space, although I do believe Radius had like one branch, if my memory serves me correctly, what are some of the lessons that you learned from that time at Radius that you’ve brought to Grasshopper?
MB: Peter, like you don’t know what the learnings were. It was unbelievable. I mean, we spent a long time. I mean, it didn’t come overnight. We didn’t build a digital bank overnight. And I’m not sure I can put these in order, but I’ll give you three or four that are really important. One is human capital. So we made a really fundamental shift in hiring that went from hiring bankers and tried to kind of get them involved in technology to hiring technology-oriented people and teaching them banking. Right? So the evolution of the industry from what, and again, I’m not being critical of anybody else’s strategy, but it’s hard to say, “You know, for a hundred years I’ve been working in branches, and I understand branch operations and I understand how to clear checks”, to say, “Now I’d like you to go and figure out how you can open up a digital checking account in three minutes.” It just doesn’t work that easy. And so what we decided was, I think that’s a hard kind of cultural evolution. Let’s hire the digital guys that think about Amazon as where they play every day, and teach them how we can turn Amazon into a bank infrastructure and think of it that way. So we swapped very quickly. And today, while you’ve got a bunch of gray haired, old school bankers that are here, most of the people that are running this company are young, digitally kind of educated people, I would say, who try and tell us how the experience has to be digital, not the other way around is the experience has to fit the back room, and we’ll make it look good. So big, big learnings, big part of the people part, I would say that also drove us to the work from away, and hire great people anywhere you can find them that align to our culture. Another one was this relationship with the regulators. So we decided early on that all of this stuff was going to be brand new and it was going to kind of maybe scare a little bit of the regulators as to where we were going, what risks we were taking. So we developed a very kind of clear partnership mentality with our regulators, which we would work with them before we launched products and we would get them to kind of be a part of what we were doing rather than have them walk in and say, “Hey, gee, you got a digital deposit account opening. Have you thought about these thousand things? But we would get their thoughts ahead of time. So it was really important for us to do. I appreciated the other side of the equation and the regulators during that period of time that we were working with to be willing to partner with us. I still think it’s a big, big part of how the industry evolves. And so we did it with BaaS, we did it with digital deposits. And listen, we had some crazy conversations about how somebody can maybe access the Federal Reserve through my digital app, right? And so, but once you get through them, there’s like a lot of great stuff that comes back and forth as to what you should do to be in a safe and sound environment.
I guess the third thing that I would say is our commitment to developing a partnership mentality with fintech versus being a software company. We kind of, and again, I’m simplifying it for you, but, like we sat around and said, “How are we going to get this digital app? How am I going to get a consumer DDA account opened in three minutes without any paper and get through all the risks associated with fraud and all this other stuff?” And it’s like, well, okay, we can partner with FIS or the likes of FIS, Jack Henry, whoever. And it’s like, I think we quickly came to the conclusion that if we wanted to be in the lead, we weren’t going to be able to wait for FIS and some of the bigger guys to develop industry-leading technology. We could hire a hundred software engineers and develop it ourselves. You know, part of the pushback there was, you know, not a lot of the great software engineers want to work in a bank. They all want to work in fintech. And I kind of kid they all, you know, more people maybe want to be Bill Gates than they want to be Jamie Dimon. I don’t know. Those are just comparisons of how the fintech world has evolved. So we came up with this partnership thing and we said, okay, we’re going to partner with great fintech companies to be able to deliver us the customer experience. And it turned out that that was what we would call our design partnership mentality. So, so when we hired a company, MANTL, to develop our first DDA, retail DDA, application, they knew a lot about technology, you know, but they knew nothing about compliance. They knew nothing about the banking side. But you know what, in three or four months working together, we provided them with all of the answers related to doing something the right way. And they provided us with all the technology that we would have had to have a hundred software engineers doing. So they became our outsourced software company. We became their outsourced kind of fact-finding kind of design partner on how to run a bank and how to be part of a bank. And together we did great things. And we’ve done that with multiple fintech companies that we talk about today, MANTL, Alloy, Treasury Prime, Narmi. That’s the partnership mentality. It allows us to get things done very quickly, very efficiently, and with a great customer experience.
PR: That’s really interesting. Thanks for sharing those. That’s really great wisdom, I think, for everybody going into the digital banking space. Speaking of which, when you think about Grasshopper, where should we put you guys? I mean, do you see your competitors as like the small business fintechs that do lending and they have deposit gathering as well, and they’re partnering with banks? Do you see it as community banks that are serving their business community? Or do you look at the bigger banks? Who do you feel like is your direct competition?
MB: Yeah, I got to be careful here about what I say. first of all, fintechs for sure. Right. So anybody who’s developing a digital Brex, can’t, you can’t leave Brex out of the equation of somebody who is using a lot of other tools to, you know, take deposits out of the system. You can’t leave companies, great companies like Mercury out of it. So there’s several of those that you could list that we say when we do our kind of analysis of where does our product stand. You know, Bluevine, Mercury, those guys we say, yeah, for sure. We got to take a look at what they’re doing, and can we compete? But at the same time, I don’t mind saying that I compete against JP Morgan or Bank of America for small businesses. And we think as a company like us with the advent of technology and the ability to use it correctly, that you can have a competitive product to JP Morgan or Bank of America. And frankly, if you lined our products up, I think you’d find ours is better. Now, are we going to out-market them? Are we going to out muscle them? No. But I do think that there are people that would say, I would rather maybe be involved in a smaller digital bank that’s going to continue to kind of keep pace with the changes in technology and where it’s going, rather than be with a larger company that might be slower. And again, I’m not complaining about any of these guys, right? I don’t want to get into an argument with the big banks because they have a wonderful model. But I think that I still have to say that if I’m a small business provider of deposits and loans, that I should be thinking about JPMorgan.
PR: You know, interesting. Then on the BaaS space, like the, troubles of 2024, you know, it’s certainly rocked the fintech world and we’re still, you know, it’s still ongoing as we record this, but how did that impact you guys? Cause obviously, you know, BaaS is not all you do, but I’m just curious about what happened inside Grasshopper as the sort of debacle of 2024 and Synapse, you know, all the things that went on there. How did that impact your clients and your thinking?
MB: Yeah, a bunch of questions and answers there, I think, inside that. But let me say this, first and foremost, is that from a regulatory perspective, we work with the OCC and it’s a quality organization that has been reviewing banks and responsible for oversight of banks for a long time. And we’ve been doing this with them since 2013. And so our programs and our practices that we put in place were always viewed as incredibly solid by our regulators. That was almost a, I guess I gotta be careful here because I do understand people’s problems and stuff happens, but it was kind of almost a competitive advantage to us that we didn’t have to pause, right? And kind of look internally and say, what haven’t we done right? Or what do we have to do more of? So you’re able like, you know, this goes on in the industry all the time. It goes on in life. If you’re building a long-term sustainable model in which, you know, manageable growth is your strategy, then usually the underpinnings of your infrastructure are built for, you know, the long-term and not for the short-term. That was an advantage for us. So, the other thing that I think legitimately happened not only with, you know, in the BaaS world, but also with Silicon Valley and others is a lot of fintechs that hadn’t thought about deposit insurance, started to think about deposit insurance. That’s the kind of like, there’s redundancy, is a word that everybody’s talking about. I got to have a backup, and that’s good, but really started with FDIC insurance. And frankly, we never lost track of that, right? We never lost track of that with our clients. And we always kind of had a way in place to get our clients FDIC insurance. So today we’ve got an 80% loan to deposit ratio and 75% of our deposits are insured by the FDIC. We do that using different techniques in the marketplace where we sell deposits, but we do that for our clients. And surely there was a rush towards us to say, my God, I need FDIC insurance. So we’re able to do that for a couple of clients in the short term, which I think, you know, when you’re thinking about quality over quantity, those are the things that make a difference for long-term relationships. So that was one of the, you know, kind of learnings. The other thing was, you know, the redundancy part was, you know, something you’d like to be able to say, you know, if you’re going to do business with Grasshopper, then I got to be your number one bank. But we never really said that, and we always encourage people to think about redundancy and have backup plans. But that became a bigger issue for us. Not a bigger issue, but a bigger outcome.
PR: Right.
MB: It didn’t impact us. I’ll get to that in a second, but yeah, any large company that does business with us, you want redundancy? Let me help you get it, right? Because that’s over the long term, that’s going to be good for you. But we also saw, you know, a bunch of clients coming our way, asking to do business with us. And so, you know, we grew nicely. We grew kind of the way we wanted to with our quality clients. And that continues to be the opportunity for us, I think, over the longer term. This is, and again, I don’t mean to, I gotta be careful here, for it’s my own opinion, but you can’t play around in BaaS, right?
PR: Yes. No tourists allowed.
MB: Right. Well said there, Peter. And I think that it’s like with a lot of things that can get complicated, that you just don’t want to just dip your toe in the water here because it sounds good. And you’ve got to think long term, is this a place you want to play, and do you want to be here? And it always was for us because of our kind of digital nature, our relationship with fintechs, our opportunities to kind of be able to maybe understand the fintech business model better than others because we do it day in and day out. So we want to be here for the long term. I think that those have been the opportunities coming out of this. And I do think that there will be, I guess my own two cents would be fewer BaaS banks, but higher quality BaaS banks who are fully committed. And maybe I shouldn’t say quality as much, because there’s a lot of quality banks that have said, you know, I want out of BaaS because they realized, I don’t know if I want to be here over the long term. Those are things that happen to all of us. But I think the banks that remain in the BaaS sector will be more committed over the long term.
PR: Right. And so then how do you see, like you’ve been talking with fintechs for many, many years, and you know, after 2024, I mean, how have the expectations of fintechs changed? The initial conversations you were having, when you talked about the redundancy, that’s a given now. I think there’s no fintech out there that wants to have a single point of failure anymore. But beyond that, how have the expectations of fintechs changed?
MB: There was a period of time where the supply demand thing maybe got out of whack a little bit. The fintechs were finding more banks willing to do business with them, and therefore maybe were, I’m not going to say maybe being required to do less than they should be doing, to create a stable infrastructure for both the bank and the fintech. And I think today there is a little bit more of a realization on the fintechs part that there is an opportunity to work with a bank that understands the compliance side and really respects it. So I think that’s really important for us to be able to do. And then I think the fintech comes in and says, “I want you to tell me how to work with regulators. I want you to teach me how to be in this for the long term.”
PR: Right, right. So, then do you primarily work with small business focused fintechs? Is that sort of, you’re doing that exclusively or do you work with a range?
MB: That would be our predominant choice, right? Today, as a business bank, to work with business-type fintechs. But we’re changing and we announced an acquisition, we’re going to enter back into the consumer world. And so that will open up the BaaS model to us. I would probably say to you that the product being offered is the lowest on the list of the most important elements of why we want to do business with a company, right? We would say to you, not even going to talk about what your product is or what you’re trying to accomplish until we get culturally aligned, right? So, do you respect the charter? Do you understand the compliance part of this? Are you in it because there’s a real reason to be a part of? Are you doing something for the client that makes their life better? Is this a long-term sustainable play? You know, what’s your experience? You know, who are you backed by? And then, finally, we would get to the product side, but you got to pass all those other parts first. Those are way more important to us than actually what the product is.
PR: You mentioned the acquisition. I want to touch on that because I was not aware of this acquisition. I thought it was interesting. Auto Club Trust. So what’s the thinking there? I mean, I don’t believe you’ve closed this transaction yet. Tell us a little bit about the state of play there.
MB: Yeah, so really kind of a fun thinking as we kind of take the beginnings of our Radius to Grasshopper and now Grasshopper next stage thought process of, you know, where do digital banks play and how can we kind of grow and serve client bases in a more meaningful way? And then the evolution of BaaS, and really what the Auto Club Trust is, is an insurance company. The insurance company owned a bank to try and do the classic, I’m going to cross sell my clients on the insurance side with financial services products, and I’m going to own a bank. We’ve seen it at State Farm, we saw it at Nationwide. Very hard to do. Very hard to do, especially when you’re trying to do it digitally. It’s like an add-on to your main business model. Goes back to what we said about BaaS. Is this the most important thing to you? Selling financial services or is it growing your insurance business? Well, it turns out growing your insurance business is the most important, and cross-selling financial services into it may be second or third on the list. But it can’t be, you can’t run a bank and have it that way.
PR: Right.
MB: And you can’t produce. I mean, it took us, it took us eight years to really build a digital bank with, with Radius. And so, they came to us and said, “Hey, listen, we would like to kind of change from owning to partnering.” Right. So, we would rather have you, who understands digital banking, your products and services, sell into my client base, or we’ll consider you a partner, rather than own it. So buy, build, partner, I guess that whole concept. And so they built it, but now they want a partner. And so we purchased the company with an exclusive right to market to their 13 million clients over a seven-year period, the majority of financial services products. And so we have redeployed our digital platforms to be able to do that because we work with partners like MANTL, Alloy and Narmi. We can do that very quickly and with low cost. So we’re prepared as of April 1st to deliver a variety of different products into that 13 million person, you know, client base, the same way we do it to our own clients. But now we have a captive audience under the AAA brand to be able to do that.
PR: These are consumers, right? That you’re to be marketing to.
MB: Predominantly consumers, but if you think of 13 million AAA card holders, there are going to be small businesses included in that. So we will have an opportunity, and you know, the creator economy is a whole different conversation, you know, we can have, but we think it will definitely include small businesses. So, this is another way for us to say, well, Mike, where do you market? How do you get clients? And is this affinity partnership a way to kind of do it through the financial services beyond a credit card. So we’ve seen affinity banking work for credit cards. Can it work for depository accounts? Can it work for auto loans? Can it work for travel loans? You know, can it work for home equity loans? In which the brand, the AAA, which we know is a very strong brand, can also white label a depository account and say, yeah, I’ll bank with AAA. They’re going to deliver me a digital solution that’s best in class, award winning. So that’s where the difference between the bank they had and the bank we offer them, we think will make a huge difference.
PR: Right. Okay. Interesting. So then maybe, in closing, can you just let us know sort of roughly what the scale of the bank is today and what, where you see the growth drivers, obviously this acquisition is going to be a growth driver, where you see the major growth drivers going forward.
MB: So today we’re a $850 million bank that sells $500 million worth of deposits every day off its balance sheet. So we have excess liquidity and excess deposit gathering in relationship to our capital. So we sell it in the marketplace. We love that part of it. That’s the core of what we do. We generate deposits. When we close the Auto Club deal, we’ll be at about a billion four in size, still selling $500 million of deposits off our balance sheet. So we become kind of a quasi $2 billion bank. And I’m using CEO math with you here, right? So we’ve got to be careful. So then we’ve entered into the consumer digital lending space. We’ll have advanced our digital lending on the business side. And so, you know, this is a bank that with fairly kind of conservative penetration into the 13 million client base can easily get into the two and a half, three billion dollar range over the next two to three years organically. Today, we serve 180,000 clients, right? Through our both direct and indirect businesses, we touch 180,000 clients through our BaaS and direct business. I mean, that number gets up into the 500,000 number, 500,000 clients in the next two to three years, if we’re anywhere near successful in penetrating that client base. So, you know, an interesting bank really that has access to clients, you know, across the country, nationwide, delivering digital solutions that are kind of industry leading. It’s kind of, is this where banking is going? Is this a place where banks like us can not only do this for the AAA brand, but maybe another brand? Walmart’s trying it itself. Is there another brand that would like to say, boy, you can really deepen my relationship if I had an industry-leading, great customer experience around financial services? So that’s a thought in our mind as to where we’re going.
PR: That’s super interesting here because brands have, you know, they’ve done forays into financial services, non-financial brands, but mainly like in the credit card space, but there’s no reason why you couldn’t expand that into other sort of financial services offerings. So super interesting. Well, anyway, Mike, thank you again. Great to chat with you again. I really appreciate you coming on the show.
MB: I enjoyed it as well, Peter. Thank you for having me.
PR: Mike provided a really thought-provoking point just then. As I said, non-financial brands have been offering co-branded credit cards for decades. But with the advent of embedded banking, there is no reason why they could not offer other types of financial products. It could be deposits, term loans, or even mortgages. In most of these cases, the brands will have to work directly with a chartered bank like Grasshopper that provides BaaS services. I have a feeling that we are going to see a lot of activity here in the coming years. Anyway, that’s it for today’s show. If you enjoy these episodes, please go ahead and subscribe, tell a friend or leave a review. And thank you so much for listening.