Building an Open P2P Network on the Debit Card Already in Your Wallet with Moov CEO Wade Arnold

Wade Arnold is the CEO and co-founder of Moov, the payments infrastructure company that brings every US payment rail together under a single contract and API. Last month Moov launched Moov Money, a real-time P2P product built with Visa and Mastercard that lets anyone with a debit card receive money, and a week earlier it announced a Coinbase partnership for stablecoin acceptance and settlement. We talk about why Wade sees a big opening for P2P outside the Zelle network, how Moov tackles scams at the network level, and why he thinks the most important payments changes will be the ones consumers never notice.

What We Covered

• From Macromedia and Adobe to Banno and Jack Henry
• How an open source ACH library became a payments company
• Moov as a network of networks payment processor
• Why P2P in the US has been limited to “pay me back”
• Moov Money as a complement to Zelle
• How a Moov Money payment flows, step by step
• Solving the two-sided network problem with Visa and Mastercard
• Fighting scams at the network level with 55 scam pattern agents
• Using the existing text message relationship as a trust channel
• The economics for community banks
• The Coinbase partnership and stablecoin settlement for small businesses
• Why Moov runs Fintech DevCon, and its move to Boulder
• Cross-border payments and the plumbing changes ahead

Key Takeaways

• Ubiquity comes from the card, not the app. Nine out of ten Americans already carry a Visa or Mastercard debit credential. By building on those networks, and embedding the sending experience in the bank’s own app, Moov Money avoids the usual chicken and egg problem of getting both sides to download and fund a new app.
• There is a large market Zelle does not serve. Around 6,000 financial institutions are not on Zelle, and neobanks, brokerages and reloadable prepaid cards cannot buy it. Wade positions Moov Money as a lower cost alternative for those institutions, starting at $500 a month and 75 cents a transaction with fraud included, and says Moov still has to prove its fraud performance before anyone would switch.
• Fraud is better fought at the network level. Rather than leaving each institution to catch scams on its own, Moov watches for money from many institutions concentrating in a single recipient. Add in on-device prompts, existing debit dispute tools and end of day settlement, and there are several chances to stop a scam before the money is gone.
• Stablecoins are about liquidity, not crypto. For a small business, the value is getting paid over the weekend and being able to restock without a line of credit. As Wade puts it, the plumbing will change underneath consumers without them ever knowing.

About Wade Arnold

Wade Arnold is the CEO and co-founder of Moov. He describes himself as a computer scientist at heart, and he started his career at Macromedia, staying on through its acquisition by Adobe, where he did his first fintech work on account opening and loan origination. He then founded Banno, a digital banking platform for community banks and credit unions that was acquired by Jack Henry in 2014.

Cleaned Transcript

Wade (00:10):
To your question on the two-sided network, that’s really the problem we wanted to overcome by partnering with Visa and Mastercard. You have almost instant ubiquity. You know, nine out of ten Americans have one of those credentials in their wallet already. So that piece of the typical two-sided network where you have to get everybody to download the app, KYC themselves, put money inside of the app, we’re overcoming that by partnering with those two brands. And then the second piece is the sender side, you know, we’re partnering with the digital banking providers, the core banking providers. And then in the larger market, they’re integrating directly to Moov. And so that sender experience makes it ubiquitous without having to say, you know, go download this or make an account in a system. All you have to do is have that debit card.

Peter (00:59):
This is the Fintech One-on-One Podcast, the show for fintech enthusiasts looking to better understand the leaders shaping fintech and banking today. My name is Peter Renton, and since 2013, I’ve been conducting in-depth interviews with fintech founders and banking executives. Today on the show, I am delighted to welcome Wade Arnold, the CEO and co-founder of Moov, the payments infrastructure company.

Now, Wade is a computer scientist at heart who started his career at Macromedia and Adobe before founding Banno, the digital banking platform that was acquired by Jack Henry in 2014. In our conversation, we talk about Moov’s unusual origins as an open source ACH library and how it has grown into a payments processor that brings every US payment rail together under a single API. We do a deep dive into Moov Money, the new P2P offering built with Visa and Mastercard that lets people send money to anyone with a debit card, and why Wade sees it as a complement to Zelle rather than a competitor. We cover how the money flows, how they tackle fraud and scams at the network level, and the economics for community banks. We also discussed their Coinbase partnership, stablecoin settlement for small businesses, why Moov runs Fintech DevCon, the conference, and what payments will look like in five years. And much more. Now let’s get on with the show.

Peter (02:36):
Welcome to the podcast, Wade.

Wade (02:38):
Hey, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Peter (02:40):
My pleasure. So I like to get these things started by giving the listeners a little bit of background. So if you could just tell us some of the high points of your career before you started Moov.

Wade (02:52):
Absolutely. So I think of myself as a computer scientist. So I started working for a company, Macromedia. Macromedia was like a web developer tool set. And we were acquired by Adobe. And at Adobe I got to do my first fintech, which was, how do I fill out a loan application when the financial institution already knows my name? So that was really, you know, pre-populating the Acrobat form. And that slid into me doing account opening and loan origination, which then I started a company, Banno, which became a digital banking platform acquired by Jack Henry. And really have been in this kind of space of fintech and going down, really going down the rabbit hole of, like, what is the low level infrastructure that backs financial services, for my entire career.

Peter (03:42):
I was reading about the sort of founding of your company, and it began, it sounds like, as a Slack group and an open source ACH library, not a typical kind of beginning for a fintech company. Tell us a little bit about the idea and what you were trying to do from the get go.

Wade (03:59):
Absolutely. So it started because I had written probably four or five ACH libraries in my career. And each one of them was a half complete version of that product. So it was, you know, PPD for doing disbursements or payroll, or CCD for business payments. And for me, that project was, I had left Jack Henry, I wanted to get back to my technical roots. And then I kind of had this domain knowledge of payments that I wanted to understand. And so it started as an ACH project. We now have, you know, 72 open source projects. We like to say we’re the most popular fintech on GitHub. We maybe are the only one, so, you know, take that for whatever it’s worth. But it’s really those low-level building blocks we wanted to release as primitives so that people could actually innovate, not on parsing a file, but on the user experience they wanted to build on top of that. And that premise started as open source and really has morphed into the same aspect of wanting people to build beautiful things and not have to worry about that low level infrastructure.

Peter (05:12):
Okay. Let’s take a step back and just talk about how you describe Moov today and who is your primary target market.

Wade (05:23):
Moov is a network of networks payment processor. And what that allows customers to do is allow them the flexibility for paying or getting paid however they want. And the problem that I was out to solve was push to debit or ACH or card issuance or merchant acquiring processing was different vendors, different contracts, different KYC, different sponsor banks. And so if you wanted to add another payment rail for a better user experience, you typically had to find a different vendor and re-onboard that end user. And so we’ve consolidated all US money movement, or US fiat payment rails, under a single contract, single API, single wallet. And that allows our customers to move money however they want to do that.

Peter (06:12):
So, you know, the catalyst for this interview was your launch last month of Moov Money, which was built in collaboration with Visa and Mastercard. Sounds like a pretty ambitious product, but why don’t you just tell us what you’re trying to achieve here?

Wade (06:30):
Absolutely. So I think P2P has always been, in the United States at least, you know, which app do you have? And then the use cases were solely just pay me back or pay my babysitter, you know, those pretty simple use cases. But the actual use case for P2P in other markets is everything from loan disbursements, you’re enrolling somebody into a network, that makes it really about getting money to somebody simply and easily rather than just the simple use case. And so we partnered with Visa and Mastercard, who already have a ubiquitous network. If you have a debit card, you can receive or request money from somebody, but we built the fraud, security, user experience on top of that network so that it’s super simple for somebody to either pay or get paid.

Peter (07:23):
So obviously you’re not the only game in town, as you’re obviously fully aware. I mean, Zelle did $1.2 trillion, I believe, last year. You’ve got Venmo and Cash App together, they’re doing several hundred billion. What made you think that there was room for another P2P? And maybe you could talk about how you’re positioning Moov Money as you answer that.

Wade (07:47):
I think how you position that is the important aspect. So both Cash App and Venmo are, you know, a closed loop proprietary network. It’d be no different than if we all just banked at USAA, we could have instant transfers. And if you didn’t want your money at that one bank, you’d have to bring money in or out. So that works, I think, if everybody chooses to kind of use the same app or bank at the same place. And then with Zelle, yeah, a huge volume going through the network, but, you know, over 2,000 financial institutions are on it. That’s another 6,000 that aren’t a part of the Zelle network. And then neobanks, brokerages, reloadable prepaid cards can’t even buy Zelle. So that’s part of the rule of their network. It’s owned by the member banks. So they don’t even offer it to a lot of these use cases that hold deposits. And so with Moov, we like the aspect of Zelle that anybody can join our network, but the openness that the deposits are flowing from whoever partners with us. And then you have the reach. You know, there’s almost ten million Americans that don’t have a bank account, but they have a reloadable prepaid card. So there’s a much larger reach and then a much larger amount of institutions that can send and receive money.

Peter (09:06):
Interesting. So then what you’re positioning this really as is a complement, it sounds like, rather than a directly competitive offering?

Wade (09:12):
Yeah, we think it’s a complement. I think there’s plenty of room out there. You just look at neobanks and brokerages. Like, you don’t have Zelle at Fidelity or Robinhood or Chime today because they couldn’t buy that product. So bringing companies like that into a different network that’s more open, obviously designed for anyone with a reloadable prepaid or debit card to have access. So not only is it more open for the sender, it’s more open for the receiver as well.

Peter (09:41):
I’d like you to describe what happens when a Moov payment, someone has connected a debit card to Moov Money. They want to send $50 to somebody. How’s the money flow?

Wade (09:54):
Yeah. A couple things on how the money flows. So number one, the sender has to be enrolled into Moov Money. So that’s a financial institution or, you know, other entity that embeds our user experience inside of their app. So even that experience is not Moov Money, it’s Pay Anyone. And it’s branded to the financial institution. So it’s inside of their digital banking app or mobile banking app. Our user experience allows them to then use their contact lists or iMessage, SMS, WhatsApp. These are already the communication mediums that people are texting back and forth. That’s a trusted source. We know we’re going back and forth. So you’re going into the app, putting in your memo, adding $50, hit send, it kicks open iMessage. Now I text you the link. So that’s all there is to it from the sending side. I can also request a payment through that same flow. I can generate a QR code as well. On the receiving side, you’re opening that link, which goes to moov.money. The first time you come into the application, we do identify you with a short code, an SMS code, to make sure it’s actually you. You can then, the second time, use a passkey, so use biometrics in order to accept it. We then prompt you with Apple Pay and Google Pay and also the directories from both Visa and Mastercard. And what that means is most consumers probably already have their card enrolled in one of those directories, and we’re surfacing that. So you can just click your, you know, Apple Pay button, choose your debit card, instantly receive the money. So it’s a very simple flow to get through it. Takes about 15 seconds the first time, which is the worst time, and it takes about five seconds the second time to receive.

Peter (11:39):
Any P2P network has a chicken and egg problem, but, you know, it sounds like you’ve solved part of that by not requiring the receiver to have anything. Is that your thinking then? So the bank can bring this on knowing this person can send money to pretty much anyone.

Wade (11:58):
That’s correct. And Venmo and Cash App actually have a debit card tied to it. So you can send it to Venmo, Cash App, Coinbase, because they have a Visa or a Mastercard credential on there. So even those networks are accessible via this product offering. And to your question on the two-sided network, that’s really the problem we wanted to overcome by partnering with Visa and Mastercard. You have almost instant ubiquity. You know, nine out of ten Americans have one of those credentials in their wallet already. So that piece of the typical two-sided network where you have to get everybody to download the app, KYC themselves, put money inside of the app, we’re overcoming that by partnering with those two brands. And then the second piece is the sender side. You know, we’re partnering with the digital banking providers, the core banking providers. And then in the larger market, they’re integrating directly to Moov. And so that sender experience makes it ubiquitous without having to say, you know, go download this or make an account in a system. All you have to do is have that debit card.

Peter (13:04):
Are there community banks live doing this right now?

Wade (13:08):
Yeah. So this is a new product launch, but we have over 200 financial institutions. You know, where does this product come from? It’s that we have over 200 financial institutions that do real-time account-to-account transfers. And so that’s a product that allows you to link your, you know, Venmo or Cash App or Coinbase or Robinhood account to your community financial institution over the debit network and do real-time transfers in and out. And so we launched that product to make a safe and secure way to bring money in and out of an institution. And then the pushback was, hey, this is great for me linking my multiple financial relationships, but why can’t I use this to pay anyone? And we had put some fraud and security rules around it so that the last name had to be the same, and you had to show proof of ownership in order to keep that real-time payment for account-to-account safe and secure. And what we’ve done is built out the product so that it is safe and secure to pay anyone now.

Peter (14:11):
So tell us a little bit about that. Like, one of the things that seems to be increasing exponentially is the amount of, like, you know, P2P scams. I get text messages every day these days with some sort of scam kind of offering. How do you view sort of the scam piece, where people are trying to do push payments, sending money to someone they don’t mean to?

Wade (14:36):
There’s not a perfect answer, but I can tell you how we’re going about it. You know, number one is we’ve embedded fraud and scam detection inside of the network. So in some of the alternatives, you know, like Zelle as an example, each financial institution is in charge of their own fraud. We take fraud at the network level because if there is a scam, the money’s coming from a lot of institutions concentrating back to a single user. We can detect that and shut it down without any human intervention. And so we’ve found today 55 different common scam patterns that people fall for. And we actually have agents running that are looking for those 55 different scams in the background at all times. And so they can actually stop the transfer, stop the transaction. So that’s at the lowest level. At the human level, we’ve taken advantage of all the toolkits inside of iOS and Android that are really important. And so as an example, most scams start with a text message from somebody you’ve never received one from. So we alert the person that this is somebody you’ve never communicated with. Are you sure you want to do this? If you’re on a phone call, you can’t swipe and send money. And we put up a nice little prompt that says, do you feel pressured into paying somebody? You know, please hang up and report this as fraud. So those things are really at the user experience level. And then on the recipient end, you know, unlike FedNow and RTP from The Clearing House, there’s a lot of existing systems around dispute resolution in the debit card rail. So there’s, you know, kind of that muscle memory that a financial institution does have in order to go get those funds back. And so you have an authorization ID from Visa or Mastercard. You can use those dispute resolution tools in order to try and claw back the funds. But last but not least is the debit networks don’t actually move money throughout the day. It’s a promise of a future settlement. And so when scams do occur, the money maybe hasn’t even left the system until the end of the day when settlement occurs.

Peter (16:46):
So then I’m just also thinking about the recipient receiving a link from somebody that they may not have ever received a transaction from before. But I’m just wondering, what about the legitimate person who is sending the transaction? Like, how are you helping the recipient distinguish between something that is a valid transaction and a scam?

Wade (17:10):
Well, number one, it’s coming from two people that know each other, right? Or it’s a QR code getting scanned. And so we think, and most financial institutions are telling their members, don’t click on a link that comes from somebody you don’t know. But we all click on links coming from people we do know. And so, you know, a typical transaction is, you know, you and I are setting up, you know, for this podcast together, and we start texting back and forth. So the trust channel is being developed via text message already. And then, hey, you know, Peter, where are we going to go for a beer after the podcast? You know, meet me down in Denver, and, you know, this great brewery we should go hang out at. And sometime after that, you thank me and, hey, you didn’t need to pick up the tab. You know, here’s the 15 bucks for my beer. So that channel of communication is part of the trust factor, versus a text message coming from the financial institution or Moov or anyone else. And so we’re trying to leverage that existing communication channel. And if I send you a link, you know, after all of that, you may even say through that trusted channel, hey, is this thing legit? Like, yeah, you know, it’s from my financial institution. So because you have that communication flow already established and it’s not coming from a third party, we’re leveraging that existing trust to make the payment more secure.

Peter (18:38):
Okay. So when someone is receiving money, like they’ve never heard of Moov Money, they’ve seen it as, like, the 15 seconds to bring their debit card from Apple Pay potentially, just connecting all that together. Is that person then now in your system? And you said, like, five seconds is sort of the second time they’re doing it. So is that suddenly someone who is in your network now that will help grow the network over time? Or how do you think about it?

Wade (19:08):
Yeah, and that’s the point. First and foremost, the link is branded to the financial institution, even though it’s going to moov.money. And so if you’re in this market, you know, to the listeners, Peter and I are both from Denver, you would know who FirstBank was. You would know who Ent Credit Union was because we’re in this market. And so that link is being sent from, you know, High Plains Bank. We know who that is in our market. So it’s themed to them, like a debit card is themed, right? The vast majority of the real estate on a debit card is the brand, and it just has in the bottom right corner, you know, Visa or Mastercard as logos of the network. And so then when you enroll, you enroll once. You generate that passkey for moov.money. And now anyone else who sends you money, you’re part of the network. You already have your debit card loaded in, we tokenize that card, and you use your passkey and you receive your money. So even if a different institution sent you money a second time, you would still have that five second experience. And then the last piece in kind of growing the network, what we found is even inside of a financial institution, almost 20% of P2P transactions are between members. And so going out of the institution and coming back in. And so part of this is all the digital users are enrolled into the network the first time they use it. And that makes it even less friction. So they’re probably going to be in the, you know, five second time period in order to receive money, which is really important as we add hundreds of institutions over the next six months. Then all of those people are in network.

Peter (20:54):
And are you typically focusing on institutions that are not part of Zelle?

Wade (20:58):
For right now we are, because there’s so many institutions that either couldn’t get Zelle or chose not to get it. And so to us, this is an alternative. It’s actually less expensive than Zelle for the financial institution, so it’s kind of greenfield for us to go after. I think we need to prove that our fraud is as good or better than Zelle before somebody would choose us over them. But, you know, it’s a huge network. So I don’t foresee, you know, the member banks turning off Zelle in order to use this when it kind of does the same thing as what they have. Maybe, you know, we both have different bells and whistles that are different than each other, but I think there’s plenty of opportunity in the United States to go after those institutions that don’t have that product.

Peter (21:45):
So let’s talk about the economics of this, because how do the economics compare to Zelle, or even RTP or FedNow? Even though they’re not really P2P, they are instant payment networks. So what’s that look like for a community bank?

Wade (21:56):
Yeah, the economics are pretty straightforward. So I think that the difference is, in like a Zelle payment, you typically have a payment hub fee, you have the actual payment processing fee, you have a fraud fee, and then you have the network or user experience fee. So those things all add up, you know, to be anywhere from 50 cents to $1.25 a transaction on that type of relationship. With Moov Money, your payment is included, your fraud’s included, and the user experience and the network are included. And so for us, at the lowest level, you know, it’s $500 a month, use it or lose it, 75 cents for a transaction. And as you scale, the price goes down. And so it’s something that, you know, for a smaller institution, the alternative was cost prohibitive for them to get into. You know, now you can have a pretty robust P2P network for $500 a month for your members.

Peter (22:52):
I also want to talk about the deal you announced before you announced Moov Money, your Coinbase partnership for stablecoin acceptance and settlement at community banks. So you’re really on the community bank bandwagon, it seems like. Tell us a little bit about what you’re trying to achieve there. And is this really about the community banks defending their deposits, or is this about new use cases?

Wade (23:20):
I think it’s about new use cases. The big thing is, it’s via community banks, and then, you know, Moov adds about 50 software companies a quarter that are processing payments on behalf of the businesses on their software platform. So a community bank kind of looks similar, where they have all these different businesses that are using digital banking, but that could be a real estate management back office as well. So, you know, we’re always selling through a software company to businesses out there, and then Moov onboards, you know, three to five hundred businesses a week onto our platform through those partners. And so we’re always thinking about what are the problems of the business. And if you can solve that problem, then you can help the bank or you can help the software company. And the business problem, and why I’m excited about this Coinbase partnership, is it really does allow for more cash flow to that business. And so number one, in our partnership, any cryptocurrency that’s supported by Coinbase, now every one of those businesses can actually accept that for checkout. And so we have people doing invoicing and online sales, like all these things that are using, you know, the traditional ACH or American Express in order to buy something. Now you can use your Coinbase wallet, your MetaMask wallet, use any of your cryptocurrencies and purchase that good. And that good could be, you know, buying a coffee, that good could be paying your mortgage, but it’s allowing that cryptocurrency to be used in the transaction. And then behind the scenes, it just falls into normal settlement. So they get their money that way. And that’s really, you know, where we’ve started in our partnership. Where this is going is we’ve now started adding a stablecoin wallet to every one of those businesses. And if you knew what Visa and Mastercard were up to with Open USD, we want to have a stablecoin wallet for every one of these businesses. ‘Cause now I can do settlement from Visa and Mastercard on the weekends. I can issue a Visa card on top of that wallet, which are all cool things, you know, payment geeks like us can talk about. But what does that mean to the small business? More ways for them to get paid, more access to capital, settlement over the weekend. I used to own a restaurant up in Summit County, and, you know, the Sysco truck doesn’t take a check if you had a big Friday and Saturday, to buy more food for Sunday, you have to have good funds in order to make that purchase. And the funny thing is, they just weren’t paid from that big Friday and that big Saturday in order to top off what they needed on Sunday. And now with Open USD and stablecoins, you’re going to be able to do that without a line of credit. And that’s what I’m excited about. It’s not crypto for the sake of crypto. It’s crypto for the sake of not having to do wires over the weekend. And by not doing wires over the weekend, now you’re adding liquidity to these businesses.

Peter (26:25):
What’s that look like in reality? Is there, like, a new payment option that the small business can set up at checkout, or how is this going to work in reality?

Wade (26:35):
Yeah, for us, you know, we already have the fill out your card, click on Apple Pay, click on Google Pay, click on Venmo. Now we’re adding in use your crypto wallet and pay with that. And so for the vast majority of our customers that are actually hosting their checkout, they just get this as another option. Zero work, and now they can have crypto. On the settlement side, that’s something they’re going to have to elect into, because I don’t know that everyone wants it. But the people who do want it want it really badly.

Peter (27:07):
Yeah, a lot of people want it, that’s for sure. Everyone wants to get their money quicker. So anyway, we’re running out of time, but I want to ask you about Fintech DevCon. As you know, I’m in the event space, have been for many years. It’s now an established part of the fintech calendar. And I’m curious to know what Fintech DevCon has done for the Moov brand, would you say? And how do you justify commercially all of the work? As you now fully appreciate, putting on an event is a lot of work. So how do you justify all of that?

Wade (27:37):
You know, for me, when I got into financial services, the big core providers and IBM and others were, this stuff’s too hard, just trust the black box, pay the licensing. And I think, you know, that really put me off from financial services. It’s why we have these open source projects. It’s why we have Fintech DevCon, because I think real innovation comes from collaboration, and the ethos that we wanted to build with that conference was collaboration. And so if you listen to any of the talks or the keynote speakers, it’s not a sales pitch. It’s typically like, here’s this horrible thing that happened that we had to overcome. And that amount of vulnerability is where I think, you know, real partnerships and real collaboration come from. And so to me, that’s who I want the Moov brand to be behind, is more of a rising tide lifts all boats than, you know, scarcity and proprietary things. ‘Cause that’s not how we’re gonna change the world together. We’re gonna change the world by sharing information, not hoarding it.

Peter (28:45):
You’re committed then to running Fintech DevCon for the long term, or at least the medium term?

Wade (28:51):
We are. Yeah, we’re at the Limelight in Boulder for the next two years. So we’re excited about going to Boulder. It’s been in Denver, and so we’re trying something new. People come from all over the world, and their ask was, I wouldn’t mind getting a little bit closer to the mountains. And so that was the closest city that still felt like you were in the mountains, that, you know, didn’t require a private jet landing in Aspen.

Peter (29:15):
You can actually walk to the mountain trails from there. So that’s a fun thing.

Wade (29:20):
That’s right. So we’re mixing it up. We’re committed to it. And I do think it’s something that, you know, Moov puts on, but it’s definitely the speakers’ conference. And, you know, some of our biggest competitors are the biggest sponsors and the biggest speakers. And I love that they lean into that event to make it bigger than what we could make it ourselves.

Peter (29:42):
So last question then. I’d love to kind of get your sense of where the future is going with payments, because I tell you what, there’s been so much innovation in the last five years. In the last two years, it feels like there’s been a bunch. I mean, just what we’ve talked about today on the show. So let’s say five years’ time, how is sending money going to be different than it is today? And what is Moov’s role going to be in that money movement?

Wade (30:08):
Number one, this cross-border thing needs to go away. Software companies and humans know no state or federal boundaries. And that to me is one of the old kind of mindsets or pieces that’s being held hostage by legacy technology and a legacy business model. I can go to Canada and use my Mastercard and buy a coffee at Tim Hortons, but I can’t tip somebody, you know, the bellhop, using that same credential. Like, that’s pretty silly. These things are so complex. Or if I’m going back and forth over the border of any country, you know, that I need a financial relationship with two different countries. So I think we’re going to solve that. And I think stablecoins is a big way that we’re going to solve it. The second piece is that, you know, my mom doesn’t know that I’ve got Cisco switches and Level 3 circuits and AT&T dedicated switches, and running IBM MQ with XML passing over it, in order for her Visa card to work. And she’s not going to know when that’s using the open internet over stablecoins, but there’s a lot of legacy tech that we can all shut down. And I think that transfers investments out of, you know, paying for this dedicated security to being able to do more innovation. And so I think the idea that my mom’s going to need a stablecoin wallet is probably a farce. But the idea that the plumbing changes underneath her without her knowing that something has changed is going to lead us to more innovation in the future.

Peter (31:48):
Okay. Well, that’s a great place to leave it, Wade. It was great to chat with you. Glad we finally got to do this. And thanks for coming on the show. Best of luck.

Wade (31:57):
Absolutely. Thank you, Peter.

Peter (32:05):
I have to admit, when I first saw the Moov Money announcement last month, I was a little skeptical. Do we really need another P2P network when we already have Zelle, Venmo, and Cash App? But Wade has changed my mind in this interview. There are around 6,000 financial institutions that are not on Zelle, and probably more importantly, neobanks, brokerages and prepaid card providers are not even allowed to join. Then there are the millions of Americans with no bank account at all who do carry a prepaid card. That is a huge part of the market that the existing networks were never built to serve. Moov is not trying to take on Zelle, it is going after everyone Zelle left behind. And I think that is a smart place to start. Anyway, that’s it for today’s show. If you enjoyed these episodes, please go ahead and subscribe, tell a friend, or leave a review. And thanks so much for listening.