Amalia Avramov, President of Financial Services of Amdocs on digital transformation for banking

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Even though banks have been going through digital transformation now for a decade or more there is obviously so much work still to be done. Big banks need help with this process, particularly when it comes to personalization as banks have historically provided products that were more in the one-size-fits-all category.

Amalia Avramov, President of Financial Services of Amdocs
Amalia Avramov, President of Financial Services of Amdocs

My next guest on the Fintech One-on-One podcast is Amalia Avramov, she is the president of financial services at Amdocs. Now, Amdocs is a large global company that got its start in telecommunications but has expanded into financial services. I have been hearing their name around more and more so I wanted to get Amalia on the show to learn more.

On this podcast you will learn:

  • Amalia’s long history at Amdocs.
  • The core industries where Amdocs operates.
  • Why they decided to expand into financial services.
  • The services they provide for the banking industry.
  • What banks are getting wrong in digital transformation.
  • What successful personalization in banking looks like.
  • Some examples of banks that Amdocs are working with today.
  • What they working on with large banks around AI.
  • The work Amalia is doing to promote diversity and inclusion.
  • How the war in Israel is impacting Amdocs and their workers there.
  • What is Amdocs vision for the future of the bank experience.

Read a transcription of our conversation below.


Peter Renton  00:01

Welcome to the Fintech One-on-One podcast. This is Peter Renton, Chairman and co-founder of Fintech Nexus. I’ve been doing this show since 2013, which makes this the longest running one-on-one interview show in all of fintech. Thank you for joining me on this journey. If you liked this podcast, you should check out our sister shows The Fintech Blueprint with Lex Sokolin and Fintech Coffee Break with Isabelle Castro, or listen to everything we produce, by subscribing to the Fintech Nexus podcast channel.

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Peter Renton  01:21

Today on the show, I’m delighted to welcome Amalia Avramov. She is the president of financial services at Amdocs. And I wanted to get Amalia on the show, because I’m seeing the Amdocs name around more and more. And I really didn’t know much about this company until this interview. So really impressed by what they’ve been able to do. They’ve got a long history, big multinational company working with with a medium sized banks and some large banks. We talk a lot about digital transformation. We talk about personalization in banking, and their example of family first banking, we talk about AI. Amalia also gives her perspective on diversity in tech. And then we also discuss their visions for the Bank of Tomorrow. It was a fascinating discussion. Hope you enjoy the show.

Peter Renton  02:17

Welcome to the podcast. Amalia.

Amalia Avramov  02:19

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Peter Renton  02:21

Okay, so let’s get started by giving the listeners a little bit of background about yourself, you’ve, you’ve been at Amdocs for quite some time – on your LinkedIn profile it goes back over 29 years. So why don’t you tell us just some of the highlights? And obviously, you know why you’ve decided to stay for all this time?

Amalia Avramov  02:41

Yeah, yeah, indeed, I’ve been with Amdocs close to 30 years, I’m going to celebrate my 30th year in a couple of months. Maybe I’ll say in general, I love the career path that I took over about 35 years ago, I did not know as a child that I liked technology, it sort of grew into me, as I developed myself as a younger girl. And then later as, as an adult, through the IDF in Israel, as you know, the everybody goes through mandatory service in the Army. And for some of us, the service is actually a great step forward. Because I was assigned to a technology unit, where I actually, this is where I learned for the first time about technology and computers. And, and this sort of sparked into me, the beauty of the world of technology where you can really imagine anything, and then start chasing that dream through technological solutions through a lot of collaborations through a great ecosystem. So I started there. And then when I was around 25 years old, I guess that discloses my age, I joined Amdocs. As I started there with Amdocs, 30, almost 30 years ago, it was mostly because Amdocs was a global company, which we didn’t have that many companies in Israel back then that were global. And for me, the most, I would say charming thing about Amdocs was the ability to relocate and to see the world outside of Israel. And so I joined majority of the decision was because of that, to join. And indeed, after just a few years, we, myself, my husband and th two children we had, we relocated to the US, and we lived there for 10 years in Texas and then in Georgia. And that was really like a beautiful experience for me and for the family, you know, to learn about new cultures and meet new people and for us, it was a great, great, great experience. My kids – I gave birth to a third boy there – I have three boys. And then 10 years after that, we decided to come back to Israel, and since then we live in Israel. And second, I’ve been developing my career almost every two to three years, with a new, different role in Amdocs. And I think that’s the beauty of Amdocs. It’s such a big company, and a global company that it allows you, as an employee, and then as a manager to really experience such a diversity of roles, from implementation to program management, to r&d, and product management. My last few roles were around the merger and integration, I was responsible for one of the largest acquisitions we did, and I built the business around the acquired company. And then I moved and built some strategic directions for Amdocs, built the Financial Services strategy arm, and now I’m running the financial services division in Amdocs. So a very, you know, diverse journey. And to me, it’s like every three or four years, I’m changing my role. So no need to change workplaces.

Peter Renton  06:05

Indeed, indeed. So Amdocs traditionally, from my reading of it, it’s based in telecommunications, was sort of the roots of the company, I believe. And you haven’t been in financial services all that long. Tell us what was the impetus there? Why move into financial services, which obviously has, it’s very different in many ways to telecommunications.

Amalia Avramov  06:30

So Amdocs indeed is, you know, our roots are from telecommunication and media. We are a large company, over 30,000 employees, like I said spanned over 70 countries almost $5 billion of revenues, over 400 telecommunication customers. The largest ones, the more complicated, the largest ones across the globe, like if you think about the largest telecommunication in the US, we serve them.  It’s AT&T , T-Mobile, it’s Verizon, and the same for each and every country. And that’s actually where we started to see the resemblance to financial services because we serve, as part of our DNA, we serve highly regulated complex, very large organizations, where these organizations, usually, throughout almost the last 40 years, the last four or five decades, are always in this process of transforming and advancing their technology, their ability to serve their customers, becoming more accessible, of course, in the telecommunication, we all know the revolution of the smartphone, and then 3G and 4G, and 5G and now 6G, and all these things that we’re used to now, because it’s part of what we do and how we live and breathe, we don’t breathe without our smartphones, right? This is the telecommunication journey, we see some resemblance to banks, in that respect, where banks, especially in the last three or four years, they have to go through some breakthrough through technology. Banks have been much more, I would say conservative than compared to the telecommunication business, of course, because of regulation, because it’s banking, etc. But now with the emergence of cloud, of security, of a safe and secure cloud, open banking. And of course, the competition that rises for banks banks need to do to, you know, to leapfrog and to really advance their technology stack. And we see that resemblance and we see our DNA and our grid, in helping large, complex customers. Complex IT is to modernize. From telco, we can bring that experience and that know-how into banking. And that’s where we started to see you know, how it does actually make sense to have an Amdocs for banking, as well. And we are applying a lot of lessons learned from the telco space. We take the opportunities that we see in banking, and we apply that and we believe I would say like a winning strategy for banks, focusing mostly on the mid-market banks like not the huge ones, which are a bit more dependent, independent, I’m sorry, but we are we are targeting more of the mid-market banks. 

Peter Renton  09:27

And what are you providing exactly as this sort of a consulting service? Are you selling software? What exactly are you providing for these mid-market banks?

Amalia Avramov  09:37

Yes, so like I said, we help highly regulated organizations design, how they engage with their customers through research and understanding of our customers and of their customers. Then it’s followed by implementation, and then operations, whether it’s the mobile app, whether it’s the website, all the way through your cloud infrastructure, which the banks are embarking upon. And that’s what we’ve been doing in the past, like I said, in the past four decades in telco, and that’s what we’re also offering in banks, in banks or in the banking industry. So from thinking with you, the bank, about how you imagine the experiences of your customers, the interaction that you want to have, with your customers, as a bank, all the way through how do we help you succeed in these implementation and in this transformation, and actually really making it happen? What we’re seeing, I have to say, in banks, is that there has been a lot of fake transformation, a lot of sunk investments into modernizations of core banking systems that never made it through. Huge investments of banks that just, you know, fall apart. And I think, by the experience that we bring in such mega transformations that we’ve done in the last four decades, and our deep knowledge of customer experience journeys, of how to actually make it happen through this complex IT landscape that you have as our customer, we know how to make it successful, we know how to build it in chunks, in small chunks that actually help you succeed rather than invest tons of money and then fail. And the whole personalization and helping you as a bank, to build your own journey, which is different from one bank to another, maybe from one country to another regulation wise is different. We know how to build the solutions with our customers, and help them actually really make the mark and succeed in their tough environment, or competitive environment that they live in today.

Peter Renton  11:51

Right, so then what are they getting wrong in this transition? You’ve you talked about, like there’s been a lot of failures, we’ve, as far as you know, technology kind of revamps of banks. What are they getting wrong here?

Amalia Avramov  12:05

Look, banks are facing some major hurdles, as they go through these journeys of transitioning to like becoming more digital, which is required from them. The first thing, let’s remember, they need to face a harsh regulator. Compliance regulation is a huge issue with banks, by the way, much more than telco for sure. So they have like the regulator and the compliance and conservative stakeholders on one hand, and then on the other side, they have a very veteran workforce that supports their systems that are, you know, on average, 40/50 years old. The banking systems are from the 70s, from the 80s, maybe even more than 50 years old, actually. So, you know, you’re stuck here between a rock and a hard place, and it’s difficult to break through. And what we’ve seen that banks did not succeed in is, like I said, first they’re making some huge investments. And they, in some cases, they’re not able to build it in the right, small enough chunk, that gets them to, to approved value on one hand, but on the other hand, does not create a huge mega investment that creates sunk money and a lot of frustration. Also, you know, banks are very conservative in keeping the legacy systems intact. The legacy systems that banks have, are very rich in functionality. And you know, it’s cozy, it’s easy to stay with these systems, they have all the functionality you want, it’s very rich. But if you want to make a change, then you know, then nothing happens. It’s like and then comes all these new fintechs. And they launch things much faster. The digital banks launch bank much faster, and you cannot compete. So one of the things that I think banks learned today is that they have to open themselves, they have to create some fast track within their IT environments, not necessarily within the existing systems and teams, because that takes too long. So one of the things we’re starting to see that banks are doing is building like a side track of a digital solution, maybe a new team, with people that are much more versed with cloud technology and with understanding the new ecosystem. And they’re starting to launch side by side solutions, which is something that now is emerging from core banks. And also banks are now using utilizing much more the Cloud. The Cloud was a big no-no with banks just a few years ago, very, everybody was really scared about security, cybersecurity, issues with Cloud privacy. I think the maturity of the hyperscalers and Cloud are now starting to resonate well with banks, and banks are also much more open to Cloud consolidation. And that’s part of some of the offerings we have. We have banks, through their cloud strategy and cloud implementation, you know, programs they have. And I would say one more thing, it’s a bit less, you know, I would say politically correct. But I think that’s a big, a big item for banks. You know, there’s a saying that culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? Look at the bank’s workforce. The bank workforce, usually it’s veteran people, their cultures for decades, they were trained and you know, thought, to be conservative, to be closed, to be highly risk averse. The New World, the new technology advancements creates great opportunities for open banking, fast, taking some leap forward. You have to do a strong workforce management and change management to succeed, otherwise, the resistance within the organization will continue to fail many of the transformations that banks embark on. And to think about the technology, hand in hand with the people and the processes, that’s the key for success. And I think, again, some banks did not look at it in such a holistic way. We know from our experience, how this can fail, if you don’t look at all three, you know, the people, the processes and the technology, all of it together holistically. And we’re helping also banks, you know, think through these processes of change management of evaluating the culture and addressing the resistance. 

Peter Renton  16:40

Okay, so I want to talk about personalization in banking. I’ve seen some writing, I think it was from you specifically, or from someone on your team, I guess, about personalization in banking. And you see these terms thrown around and you see hyper personalization thrown around, which I never actually know what that means. When we talk about personalization in banking, particularly when you’re going with, you know, fairly large organizations. What does it actually mean? How can banks do it well? 

Amalia Avramov  17:09

Personalization first, like you said, it’s, it’s not just in banks, right? It’s a term we use today, across everything you do, everything we do. When you go to Amazon, you already want Amazon to know, what are your preferences, who you are, what do you like to buy for Christmas? And what do you you know, what do you do you prefer, like, outdoor stuff, etc? Think about the same thing in your banking experience. We actually have one, I think, very nice use case that we launched recently, which is the, we call it family first banking. And that’s a great example of personalization. So, you know, let’s, let’s start with the, with a fun fact. I don’t know if you know, but in the US alone, today, there are 6 million multi generation households up from 5.1 million in 2010. So that we’re starting to see more and more households where the parents live with the grandparents or with all their children, sometimes with grandchildren. And this multifamily household needs different, has different needs than maybe a youngster student or a young couple that live separately. And so when we started to look at the family oriented banking experience, we’re starting to see some clear needs that are very different. As an example, going through the process of setting up an account for our younger children, my son is 16 years old, I want to open a bank account for him. I don’t know how to do it, maybe he doesn’t know how to do it. He doesn’t have the financial literature experience that I have. But I can’t necessarily open a bank account for him because of regulation, because of security, etc. And another example would be me helping my parents, disable maybe an older parent, help them, supporting them with their banking needs. These things today, at the maximum he will give me his passcode, my father and my mother will give me their passcode. And I’ll do it for them, which of course is a huge violation. When we started thinking and imagining the family first banking, we built this concept and we actually work with some banks to implement it now where banks allow through, of course, security measurements and user lifecycle management, we allow a family view of your banking needs. And we start thinking of you and of your family. We break the different needs that you have as a family to the different family members. In a way we break the silos of the needs between the family members. Of course all that within the regulation boundaries that allow us to do that, technology allows it today, it’s very easy to do it through technology. The main challenge here is actually more around regulation, and what can I access within, you know, within the security limitations that I have. But as you address the regulation in each country, you’re starting to see a very different experience that we can have as a family, you know, from the older member to the mother/father to the youngster, that lives in the house. And each one of them has their own unique experience. And that’s an example of personalization. That actually takes us deeper into the day to day processes that we do with the different roles that we have in the family. So it’s much beyond a nice screen, with the nice clicks on the screen. It’s the whole thinking process of how my experiences are as a family member within a specific family. So that’s one example that we built.

Peter Renton  21:10

Interesting. You know, I look at the the landscape today. Like there’s certain accounts that are set up for kids, now I’ve even seen there are some fintechs that are starting now to focus on the senior market. But I haven’t seen anybody really doing it in a holistic way. And that’s, that’s super interesting. Can you give us some examples? Obviously, ones that you can talk about publicly of banks that you’re actually working with today? I mean, are there any here in the US? Or, I know you’re a global company? Can you give us some examples? 

Amalia Avramov  21:41

Oh, yes of course, we do have banks in the US and across the globe as I said. I want to give actually an example of a bank in Holland, ABN AMRO, it’s actually a very large bank. And what they were facing when they approached us is they have this old, complex and expensive mainframe systems, by the way, all banks have it still. And this is where they they ran their legacy software. That’s where they drove their fee management and invoicing. And what they really wanted to do is help drive better experiences with their customers around invoicing. So the problem that they had was that if I’m a customer of the bank, and I have a saving account, a checking account, credit card with a bank alone, I would get different invoices and different different fees from each one of the services that I’m getting from the bank. And sometimes it wasn’t even on the same day that I would see the charge or the fee. And the bank never saw me holistically, saw me as a customer with all the services that I was consuming from the bank. And they wanted to centralize all the invoices to create like a 360 view of their customers to organize the account information in such a way that allows them to better understand my needs and the services that I’m getting from them, and give me a better experience. What we did, we helped them with our billing and charging solution. On top of that we built a centralized catalog, these are parts of the offerings that we have today with banks. And we helped them build the right experiences sitting on the existing legacy system. So they didn’t have to retire any system. They didn’t have to write tons of, you know, lines of code to make it happen. All they needed to do is allow us to come and through API’s integrate to the legacy system and create this unified experience for their customers. In parallel. Because we came as a technology company, we help their teams, build the DevSecOps methodologies, and advance their IT capabilities, which they were you know, like more of the legacy side of the house. So we help them some, with removing some inefficiencies, building better processes and also opening themselves to the world. And I think today ABN AMRO is one of the more advanced banks that we see in Europe and of course in the Netherlands and they’re progressing now with us, we’re helping them, automation and AI and launching many, many new offerings.

Peter Renton  24:25

Interesting. So you mentioned AI there. What are some of the things that you’re working on, specifically with large banks and AI? 

Amalia Avramov  24:34

Yeah, look AI is huge buzz, right? Everybody’s talking about AI. Everybody wants to see some immediate value from AI. We need to remember that it’s quite new, is you know, especially in banks, banks will be generally I suspect that banks will be slow in adopting AI because of regulation and because of the conservative industry that banking is. However, we are starting to work with banks around AI, I think I would say in three domains. The first domain is I think the most immediate domain is efficiency. Through AI, automating repetitive activities, any organization banks, but also non-banks can improve the efficiency, automate and create, you know, a much faster operations and much more automated operation. And by the way less prone for errors, because you eliminate a lot of user errors by creating automation that is also intelligent and improving itself through AI. So, the immediate suspect that we’re starting to see, and we’re helping banks also, implementing such programs is to build efficiencies around their operations. And by the way, banks need to reduce the cost of operations, because they have like, like we said, very heavy legacy systems. The second use case that we are working with banks is actually around customer experiences. I think the first one we see is wealth management. So helping us, the customers, think how we want to have our investment portfolio. And what’s the best way for us to invest our money? Through AI, the AI can help me understand my customer needs, what is he doing? What’s his income? What does he spend money on? What are his habits? And create by that maybe the better portfolio for him for investments, for money management, to address the different needs of his financial, specifically around wealth management. And we’re starting to see some, you know, like, recommendation engines for wealth management in banks. But I will say that this is a bit, a bit slower, because there’s always going to be a question of what if the investment didn’t work? Well, what if I’m not happy with the recommendation? How does the bank support the information that they use to give me that recommendation if it came through AI? So there’s a big question still to be solved. Around If I’m starting to put some recommendation with my customers, and they actually make decisions based on that? How do I capture all the data behind it as the regulator likes to, you know, to make sure that I’m doing. How do I do it through AI? So I think I will need to mature a little bit and be better at reporting and probably exposing some of the data analysis that is happening behind, so that banks can really use it, and accordingly, according to regulation. Then there’s the third angle that we’re starting to see, and that’s around technology advancements. So helping banks ITs, helping their developers develop code through AI, we’re seeing many, many acceleration tools, AI tools that help developers program better, you know, build better solutions, better technology solutions, sometimes much more sophisticated using some AI tools and automation tools. So in a way, like we talked a few minutes ago, banks can open up themselves more through AI, at least in the technology in the IT department, and create more accelerated solutions, using AI tools and AI recommendations. And I think that will actually that can actually grow quite fast, because there’s not so much, you know, regulation limitation there.

Peter Renton  28:50

Yeah, I think that’s a super interesting area. And I know one of my favorite conversations from last year was with the CTO of Goldman Sachs. And some of the work that they’re doing, are exactly what you described, helping their developers become more efficient. And he was talking about having them become superhuman, because you have you take your top developers and you really unleash AI, their productivity can just, just skyrocket. 

Amalia Avramov  29:10

Sky’s the limit. Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s skyrocketing. We thought, we’re seeing that all over.

Peter Renton  29:16

Okay, I want to switch gears a little bit. I want to talk about the work you’re doing, you’re on the board of the Edmond de Rothschild foundation. It’s an organization committed to diversity and equality, among other things. How are you championing those values, particularly around diversity and equality within Amdocs? 

Amalia Avramov  29:34

Yeah, so like you said, I’m really passionate about diversity and inclusion. I’m very passionate about women in tech, women in STEM. I’m spending a lot of my time in promoting that. So you know, there’s many different ways of doing that. One is I’m helping through some different organizations that we work with with Amdocs through different programs. We are I would say, guiding and coaching these populations, for example, young girls that are, live in the outside, in the outskirts of the country, not just in Israel, by the way, we do it globally across the different countries that we operate. We build some, you know, joint groups like members of groups, and we help them through a program where we coach them, and talk to them about technology in the world. Talk to them about decisions that they’re making in different milestones of their life, especially the very young girls, it’s very easy to see, you know  like 15/16 year old girls, where they’re starting to have some fixtures about the limitation of what they can have, because maybe, you know, I need to become a mother and I will have children. And maybe already at that stage, I will go and become a teacher rather than go and work in a tech company, because probably my husband will be the, you know, the main supporter of the family. And that’s already you know, all kinds of fixtures that we have that comes through norms that we have been raised on. And through many programs that we do we help a lot of young girls think through how do you break your glass ceiling? How do you choose the right partners in your life to really achieve your goals and to really fulfill where you want to be? And you will be surprised on how still, there’s a lot of barriers, you know, the world, I think is going of course, advancing to equality if you compare it to 100 years ago, but still, there’s a lot of work to be done. I think COVID, by the way, took us backwards, because you know what happened in COVID, that people work from home. And then when there is mother and the father and the children. And if you need to get on a Zoom call, probably the mother would give up and be with the children when, like in 80% of the cases, we actually saw statistics around it. In 80% of the cases, the male will get the priority of being on the phone, being accessible, for calls, while the mother will stay with the children and will basically, you know, take her priorities lower.

Peter Renton  32:22


Amalia Avramov  32:23

So we’re investing a lot in that. We’re also looking at some ethnic diversity, underserved population. I want to say that also you can connect the whole journey of digitalization in banking, also to the underserved population, because if you think about it, the journeys that we’re going through in banking, open banking, digital wallets, digital banks, it actually opens up financial services to the underserved population, because you don’t need to go to a bank, you don’t need to have a physical credit card. Basically, if you have a smartphone, you can have access to some financial services that you didn’t have before, in remote countries in Africa and in many different remote locations in the world. So I do see a connection between the journey that banks are going and between inclusion and serving the underserved and allowing them for more financial opportunities. 

Peter Renton  33:28

Okay, before we close, I do want to touch on, you’re in Israel, you said and obviously we’re recording this the first week of January, just before the three month anniversary of the war with Hamas. And I wanted to ask you how how that is. I mean, I’ve spoken to a few people in Israel in the last couple of months, everyone seems to be very resilient, been impacted dramatically. But work continues. How is the war impacting Amdocs and the people who work there? 

Amalia Avramov  33:58

Amdocs is a global company, we have more than, close to 90% of our employees are not in Israel. So just a bit over 10% is in Israel. And so you know, there was no direct impact. And we actually had a very busy quarter, we had a record high projects and programs, we acquired some very important new customers and like I said, also in the banking domain, we are expanding our offerings and building some very interesting solutions with our customers. So you know, it’s not so much about an impact on Amdocs because that wasn’t the issue. The main thing is, you know, it’s a difficult time on a personal level. We see people here in Israel that had to leave their homes. And we what we did actually in Amdocs is in the last four months. We helped them find new homes, initially in hotels, and then later on in some temporary places where they can stay for now, because some of them will need to rebuild their houses, and it will take time. We helped them through their edu, you know, helping them with their children, helping them with some education, with some mental support. Anything they needed, you should have seen the level of volunteering that happened here in the last three months, like everybody’s helping and volunteering and bringing and going to help agriculture, we had some huge areas of agriculture, where we, nobody worked the fields, because these were areas that are close to the border. And so after the attack, we had many Israelis from the center of the country going there and helping them, you know, picking the crops and helping them get around what they needed. So in general, what we did as Amdocs, but also as private people, we’re thinking how we can help bypass this period and, you know, give as much support as we can to the very, very precious people, and some of them that have gone through a very tough time. 

Peter Renton  36:18

Indeed, indeed. Okay, so last question, then I want to talk about the bank of the future, the Bank of Tomorrow, what is Amdocs vision for the Bank of Tomorrow?

Amalia Avramov  36:31

It’s not just the Bank of Tomorrow, what I would say is the future of banking, the whole banking experiences, which we know today, it’s not just traditional banks, it’s a lot of different technology solution and different fintechs. And I would say that the future of banking is a set of digital, personal experiences that will support the new lifestyle, the lifestyle of the future generations, with AI capabilities that are going to be secured and safe. It will be open, it will allow inclusion and underserved population, it will provide access to basic financial services, through mobile banking, through digital wallets. And overall, I would say that the future of banking is characterized by increased digitization, automation and personalization, delivering seamless banking experiences to customers. I think that’s the main, and there’s a lot of details behind it, but it’s, you know, the the overarching change that we will see in the future of banking,

Peter Renton  37:48

It’s gonna be really interesting to see how this all unfolds. Well, Amalia, I really appreciate you coming on the show today. Thank you so much.

Amalia Avramov  37:54

Thank you so much, Peter. It’s been a pleasure.

Peter Renton  37:58

Well, I hope you enjoyed the show. Thank you so much for listening. Please go ahead and give the show a review on the podcast platform of your choice and go tell your friends and colleagues about it. Anyway, on that note, I will sign off. I very much appreciate you listening, and I’ll catch you next time. Bye.